Received: from mail-wi0-f190.google.com ([209.85.212.190]:62854) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wtsxn-0005pi-I0 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:22:03 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f190.google.com with SMTP id q5sf423042wiv.27 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6qLKUSvk+S0eZ0S/FjgO6tMvrGqDVuiOoqY1dOPSQS8=; b=wiUPF2hq5Vpj7g4KT0xU7BUHBDPblocobtsMiXTb7+USgQB+xaIbLsnc4bTanfTttJ jtkv2Wi1GZyG24jM3skJch367L5m00/FYIfTps2YoUwy1TOfxT2/UtffDmYX74PyqMOV Pbj9VoQV9rmdGKGf/xFrWXeuSgSBpThqjrYAlQkaZy57Hy75jLFk11hgwn67qTX0SSdp wQNmb+U8XDRoFNzf09JVxkrqz8UceYbJPJQSqANWQSFC3yoRntiOBwt6WGJa8XE2ryzh V3dDdeH2wEfJZJSiFA5lfqpb7c6EN8lAaeQ8QfpZf/0j0ygWqeBSrduhIN15YvkmkiJS fMsA== X-Received: by 10.152.2.228 with SMTP id 4mr394lax.37.1402294900188; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.29.135 with SMTP id k7ls266407lah.69.gmail; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.49.229 with SMTP id x5mr57841lbn.14.1402294899087; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3si466399wic.3.2014.06.08.23.21.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::232; Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id n15so619108wiw.11 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.169 with SMTP id m9mr17014402wiv.53.1402294898951; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 23:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jun 2014 23:21:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:21:38 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c7e1e528ca704fb613936 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043c7e1e528ca704fb613936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-09 2:07 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > If we search for "pedantically" in the official gismu list, we find 15 > hits, corresponding to the notes on these words: > > > canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima/jerna/jinga/kargu/pleji/p= rali/vamji/vecnu > > The comment is basically the same for all of them: "pedantically, for > objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the > object/commodity". This comment comes after saying that the argument plac= e > in question can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it's hard = to > say what the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do wit= h > these words. Are they allowed to take objects or not? > > If we search for "sumti-raising" we get those 15 plus xajmi and djica. > In fact this is not really about raising in the linguistics sense of the > term, so I won't be talking about sumti-raising. The question is whether > argument places like these can take objects and/or events and/or properti= es. > > There are other words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for > which the gismu list doesn't say anything explicitly about "sumti-raising= ", > for example: > claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/lebna/cpacu/jbera/cuxna/v= imcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji > /cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ralte > > In the case of ricfu and pindi, for example, the list explicitly gives > permission to use goods or properties in x2, without any "pedantically" > warning. "claxu" on the other hand says nothing about the type of thing > that can be lacked. It's hard to say whether this was done on purpose or = it > was just an oversight. > > I don't know whether in real-life Lojban there are people who eschew "mi > dunda lo plise do" in favor of "mi dunda lo ka ponse lo plise kei do", "m= i > dunda tu'a lo plise do" or "mi posydu'a lo plise do". > > Let's cosinder these examples of "dunda": > (1) mi dunda lo plise do > (2) mi dunda lo nu mi gunka kei do > (3) mi dunda lo nu do gleki kei do > (4) mi dunda lo ka ce'u ponse lo plise kei do > (5) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gunka kei do > (6) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gleki kei do > I contend that (1) is unequivocally correct Lojban, and that the > "pedantically" notes should be removed from the gismu list. I contend tha= t > (2) and (3) are also perfectly fine, x1 being responsible for the event a= nd > x3 being the beneficiary. I don't see any problems with (4). The question > here is, is (4) correct because the property is transferred from x1 to x3= , > or is it correct because x1 is responsible for x3 acquiring the property?= I > think the latter is correct, which also justifies (6), and it also means > that (5) is not correct in the sense of (2), since (5) should means that = I > give work to you, not that I giive my labor to you. The definition thus h= as > to be clear about whose property we are talking about when a place takes = a > property (the gismu list mentios properties but doesn't say whose propert= y > it is). > It's a non-problem for me to correct {dunda}. The main obstacle for me is that there might be much more than those 15 brivla that would allow "object" =3D> "property" change. In my version of gimste all those places a= re marked as "located" and ... in fact the majority of places are "located" throughout the gimste. > I believe that that's basically how all of these > possession/transfer/exchange predicates should work. Except for the basic > ponse/ckaji split, which clearly distinguish possession of objects from > possession of properties, all the other predicates can happily mix them u= p, > and having two parallel lists for the ones and the others would be too > costly. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043c7e1e528ca704fb613936 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-09 2:07 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>:
If we search for "pedantically&= quot; in the official gismu list, we find 15 hits, corresponding to the not= es on these words:

canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima/jerna/jinga/= kargu/pleji/prali/vamji/vecnu

The comment is basically the same for all of them: "pedantically, for object= s/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity= ". This comment comes after saying that the argument place in question= can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it's hard to say wh= at the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do with these = words. Are they allowed to take objects or not?

I= f we search for "sumti-raising" we get those 15 plus xajmi and dj= ica.
In = fact this is not really about raising in the linguistics sense of the term,= so I won't be talking about sumti-raising. The question is whether arg= ument places like these can take objects and/or events and/or properties.

T= here are other words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for whic= h the gismu list doesn't say anything explicitly about "sumti-rais= ing", for example: claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/leb= na/cpacu/jbera/cuxna/vimcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji/cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ra= lte

In the case of = ricfu and pindi, for example, the list explicitly gives permission to use g= oods or properties in x2, without any "pedantically" warning. &qu= ot;claxu" on the other hand says nothing about the type of thing that = can be lacked. It's hard to say whether this was done on purpose or it = was just an oversight.

I don't kno= w whether in real-life Lojban there are people who eschew "mi dunda lo= plise do" in favor of "mi dunda lo ka ponse lo plise kei do"= ;, "mi dunda tu'a lo plise do" or "mi posydu'a lo pl= ise do". =
Le= t's cosinder these examples of "dunda":
(1)= mi dunda lo plise do
(2) mi dunda lo nu mi gunka kei do
(3) mi dunda lo nu do glek= i kei do
(4) mi dunda lo = ka ce'u ponse lo plise kei do
(5) mi dunda lo = ka ce'u gunka kei do
(6) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gleki kei do
I c= ontend that (1) is unequivocally correct Lojban, and that the "pedanti= cally" notes should be removed from the gismu list. I contend that (2)= and (3) are also perfectly fine, x1 being responsible for the event and x3= being the beneficiary. I don't see any problems with (4). The question= here is, is (4) correct because the property is transferred from x1 to x3,= or is it correct because x1 is responsible for x3 acquiring the property? = I think the latter is correct, which also justifies (6), and it also means = that (5) is not correct in the sense of (2), since (5) should means that I = give work to you, not that I giive my labor to you. The definition thus has= to be clear about whose property we are talking about when a place takes a= property (the gismu list mentios properties but doesn't say whose prop= erty it is).


It's a non-proble= m for me to correct {dunda}. The main obstacle for me is that there might b= e much more than those 15 brivla that would allow "object" =3D>= ; "property" change. In my version of gimste all those places are= marked as "located" and ... in fact the majority of places are &= quot;located" throughout the gimste.


I believe that = that's basically how all of these possession/transfer/exchange predicat= es should work. Except for the basic ponse/ckaji split, which clearly disti= nguish possession of objects from possession of properties, all the other p= redicates can happily mix them up, and having two parallel lists for the on= es and the others would be too costly.

mu'o mi'= ;e xorxes

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