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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 10:46:50 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+jCPKtkuMTSYMQUekx-ry2uUFYkCWaLTE0ufKr-6rXyHA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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I think it's better to start from limiting places to "located" (aka
"object/event") and change them to properties carefully, thus slowly giving
Lojban more freedom step by step. Thus we are already on the right track.


2014-06-10 1:46 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

>
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:21 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>>> canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima/jerna/jinga/kargu/pleji=
/prali/vamji/vecnu
>>>
>>> There are other words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for
>>> which the gismu list doesn't say anything explicitly about "sumti-raisi=
ng",
>>> for example:
>>> claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/lebna/cpacu/jbera/cuxna=
/vimcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji
>>> /cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ralte
>>>
>>> It's a non-problem for me to correct {dunda}. The main obstacle for me
>> is that there might be much more than those 15 brivla that would allow
>> "object" =3D> "property" change.
>>
>
> Indeed. I already listed 24 more.
>
>  In my version of gimste all those places are marked as "located" and ...
>> in fact the majority of places are "located" throughout the gimste.
>>
>
>  It is to be expected that the majority of places will be first and
> foremost for concrete objects. I think the biggest problem will be for
> those who are very anti-metaphor, or anti-unmarked metaphor, because they
> need to know exactly when a place admits a property in a literal sense an=
d
> when it doesn't. For example, if I say "lo ka ce'u jbopre cu pagbu mi", i=
s
> that literal or metaphoric? What about "lo ka ce'u senpi cu pagbu lo ka
> ce'u remna"? The official gismu list doesn't specify any types for "pagbu=
".
> What about "lo ka ce'u jbopre cu panlo mi"?
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>  --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think it&#39;s better to start from limiting places to &=
quot;located&quot; (aka &quot;object/event&quot;) and change them to proper=
ties carefully, thus slowly giving Lojban more freedom step by step. Thus w=
e are already on the right track.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-06-10 1:=
46 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jj=
llambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:21 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/j=
dima/jerna/jinga/kargu/pleji/prali/vamji/vecnu<div class=3D""><div><br></di=
v><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">There are othe=
r words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for which the gismu l=
ist doesn&#39;t say anything explicitly about &quot;sumti-raising&quot;, fo=
r example: claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/lebna/cpacu/jber=
a/cuxna/vimcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;white-space:pre-wrap">/cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ralte</span></d=
iv>


<div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div>It&#39;s=
 a non-problem for me to correct {dunda}. The main obstacle for me is that =
there might be much more than those 15 brivla that would allow &quot;object=
&quot; =3D&gt; &quot;property&quot; change.</div>

</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Indeed. I already =
listed 24 more.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D""><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> In my version o=
f gimste all those places are marked as &quot;located&quot; and ... in fact=
 the majority of places are &quot;located&quot; throughout the gimste.</div=
>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>=C2=A0It is to be =
expected that the majority of places will be first and foremost for concret=
e objects. I think the biggest problem will be for those who are very anti-=
metaphor, or anti-unmarked metaphor, because they need to know exactly when=
 a place admits a property in a literal sense and when it doesn&#39;t. For =
example, if I say &quot;lo ka ce&#39;u jbopre cu pagbu mi&quot;, is that li=
teral or metaphoric? What about &quot;lo ka ce&#39;u senpi cu pagbu lo ka c=
e&#39;u remna&quot;? The official gismu list doesn&#39;t specify any types =
for &quot;pagbu&quot;. What about &quot;lo ka ce&#39;u jbopre cu panlo mi&q=
uot;?=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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