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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:45:52 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+iBy2tSFy3cP4yc-tRDiitLOyvRjUV7wUpZwETgior=SA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-06-09 2:07 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

> If we search for "pedantically" in the official gismu list, we find 15
> hits, corresponding to the notes on these words:
>
> canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima
>

not sure what jdima1 should connect to.
the price of getting (becoming a possesor of) an apple or the price of
giving an apple (giving a possesion)?


> /jerna/jinga/kargu
>
kargu1 - property of x2???


/pleji
>

pleji4=3Dproperty of pleji3


> /prali/vamji
>

i forgot how to use vamji4


> /vecnu
>


^ All these gismu moved to "klesi4=3DAction. Possesion interactions
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0Ahngu1CNj7wddFltdkVpZFNLWlQ=
5dVN1VVpXSnphVVE&usp=3Ddrive_web#gid=3D7>
".


> The comment is basically the same for all of them: "pedantically, for
> objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the
> object/commodity". This comment comes after saying that the argument plac=
e
> in question can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it's hard =
to
> say what the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do wit=
h
> these words. Are they allowed to take objects or not?
>
> If we search for "sumti-raising" we get those 15 plus xajmi and djica.
>
not sure why xajmi1 should be a property of x2.

Still it is possible of course. {lo ka xalbebna cu xajmi mi}
But do we need to specify it in the definition? What else can ce'u in
xajmi1 refer to if not to x2 (this of course make xajmi3 unnecessary)?

May be we should specify
1. "property" in x1 when it refers not to x2
2. "property" in x2, x3, x4, x5 when it refers not to x1

Revised simple gimste already says just "property" instead of "property of
x1" so the item 2. has been applied already.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-06-09 2:07 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>If we search for &quot;pedantically&=
quot; in the official gismu list, we find 15 hits, corresponding to the not=
es on these words:</div>
<div><br></div>canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima</div></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>not sure what jdima1 should connect to.</div><div=
>the price of getting (becoming a possesor of) an apple or the price of giv=
ing an apple (giving a possesion)?</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">/jerna/jinga/kargu</div>=
</blockquote>
<div>kargu1 - property of x2???</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wid=
th:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">/pleji</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>pleji4=3Dprop=
erty of pleji3</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">/prali/vamji</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>i forgo=
t how to use vamji4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">/vecnu</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>^ All these gismu moved to &quot;<a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/sprea=
dsheet/ccc?key=3D0Ahngu1CNj7wddFltdkVpZFNLWlQ5dVN1VVpXSnphVVE&amp;usp=3Ddri=
ve_web#gid=3D7">klesi4=3DAction. Possesion interactions</a>&quot;.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>

<br></div><div>The comment is basically the same for all of them: &quot;<sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">pedantically, for object=
s/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity=
&quot;. This comment comes after saying that the argument place in question=
 can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it&#39;s hard to say wh=
at the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do with these =
words. Are they allowed to take objects or not?</span></div>


<div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">I=
f we search for &quot;sumti-raising&quot; we get those 15 plus xajmi and dj=
ica.</span></div></div></blockquote><div>not sure why xajmi1 should be a pr=
operty of x2.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Still it is possible of course. {lo ka xalbebna cu xajm=
i mi}</div><div>But do we need to specify it in the definition? What else c=
an ce&#39;u in xajmi1 refer to if not to x2 (this of course make xajmi3 unn=
ecessary)?</div>
<div><br></div><div>May be we should specify=C2=A0</div><div>1. &quot;prope=
rty&quot; in x1 when it refers not to x2</div><div>2.=C2=A0&quot;property&q=
uot; in x2, x3, x4, x5 when it refers not to x1</div><div><br></div><div>Re=
vised simple gimste already says just &quot;property&quot; instead of &quot=
;property of x1&quot; so the item 2. has been applied already.</div>
</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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