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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:49:01 +0200
From: "'Wuzzy' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban
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Good that you asked for help!

Okay, let=E2=80=99s start with the most serious mistakes: Grammatical mista=
kes.

First, missing articles:

> a1. .aunai snime cu carvi le cmana
Not grammatical. =E2=80=9Csnime=E2=80=9D is probably missing a =E2=80=9Clo=
=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cloi=E2=80=9D.

> a5. .i tcima cu simsa le mi menli sevzi
=E2=80=9Ctcima=E2=80=9D without article =E2=80=A6

> b5. .i cusku na selxanka mi
again, no article for =E2=80=9Ccusku=E2=80=9D


Remember: All sumti have to have an article. The reason for this:
Otherwise they would look like the brivla (the predicate word) and it
would not be possible to tell predicate word from sumti apart.

Different grammatical failures:
> a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta=20
> Here there is no path.
=E2=80=9Cvi=E2=80=9D expects a sumti after it to indicate the location.
Without that, the sentence is not grammatically correct.
But you can =E2=80=9Cvi=E2=80=9D also without sumti, if you use a =E2=80=9C=
ku=E2=80=9D after it.
(=E2=80=9Cvi ku=E2=80=9D). This means something like =E2=80=9Caround here, =
you know what place
I am referring to=E2=80=9D (I guess).

I am not sure with this one:
> c0. .i benji lo mi vlipa lo loldi fu ti
> My power is transfered to the ground via this.
Careful! =E2=80=9Clo mi broda=E2=80=9D is the same as =E2=80=9Clo broda pe =
mi=E2=80=9D.
And =E2=80=9Cpe=E2=80=9D is only weak association. I am not sure if you wan=
ted this.
A stronger association needs =E2=80=9Cpo=E2=80=9D (if you meant it that way=
) and can
not be shortened.
Additionally, =E2=80=9Clo vlipa=E2=80=9D already refers to the powerful one=
, so it
should be =E2=80=9Clo se vlipa=E2=80=9D. Since the powerful one is already =
part of the
=E2=80=9Cvlipa=E2=80=9D predicate, you can, much more elegantly, use =E2=80=
=9Cbe=E2=80=9D instead to
refer to an argument of the sumti. So:

=E2=80=9Clo se vlipa be mi=E2=80=9D or, condensed =E2=80=9Clo selvli be mi=
=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9CThe power of me=E2=80=9D)

Poor tanru:


> c9. .i curmi snime
> The permitted snow.
Nope. =E2=80=9Clo curmi=E2=80=9D is the permitter. So this tanru would prob=
ably more
mean something like =E2=80=9Cthe permitter snow=E2=80=9D.=20
The permitted thing is =E2=80=9Clo se curmi=E2=80=9D. So:
=E2=80=9C.i se curmi snime=E2=80=9D or, condensed: =E2=80=9C.i selcru snime=
=E2=80=9D for
something like =E2=80=9Cpermitted snow=E2=80=9D.
But apart from that, as an observational it is perfectly OK.

> d2. .i lo pa bisli spoja pensi cu dunja
> One frozen exploding thought congeals.
=E2=80=9Clo pensi=E2=80=9D refers to the thinker, not the thought. The thou=
ght is =E2=80=9Clo
se pensi=E2=80=9D, or short: =E2=80=9Clo selpei=E2=80=9D. So I suggest:
=E2=80=9Clo pa bislu spoja selpei cu dunja=E2=80=9D

> b9. .i lono jitro terpa cu pagre fi mi .u'e
> None of the controlling fears enter the wondrous {.u'e} me.
=E2=80=9Clo terpa=E2=80=9D is the fearer, =E2=80=9Clo se terpa=E2=80=9D is =
the fear.
Use something like =E2=80=9Cjitro se terpa=E2=80=9D


Semantical problems:
Missing NU cmavo:
> a4. .i mi simlu lo turni
x2 needs to be a property, sorry.

> a7. .i ko na curmi lo viska
x2 must be a event, therefore =E2=80=9Clo nu=E2=80=9D

Obviously misunderstood cmavo:
> c2. .i .ia zi'o marde fi mi
> .ia non-existant are morals applying to me.
This is not how =E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D works. This word is intended to remo=
ve a place
from a predicate. This does not mean the thing in question does *not
exist*. Removing a place from a predicate means you simply do not make
any assertion about it. In fact, you automatically create a new
predicate by using =E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D.

A probably more intuitive example may be =E2=80=9Clatna=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=
=99s defined as:
=E2=80=9Cx1 is a lotus, plant/flower/herb of species/strain x2 symbolizing =
x3
to culture/religion x4=E2=80=9D.
While there are certainly lotus flowers which mean something to
someone, I don=E2=80=99t want always to imply that by using =E2=80=9Clatna=
=E2=80=9D.
If you say =E2=80=9Cti latna=E2=80=9D, you say: =E2=80=9CThis is a lotus of=
 some species, which
symbolizes something to some culture=E2=80=9D. But what if I just don=E2=80=
=99t care
whether this flower does mean anything to some culture? Then I can use
=E2=80=9Czi'o=E2=80=9D.
=E2=80=9Cti latna fi zi'o zi'o=E2=80=9D
=3D =E2=80=9CThis is a lotus flower of some species.=E2=80=9D (This carries=
 no assertion
about culture whatsover)

Btw: I invented the word =E2=80=9Catna=E2=80=9D as a shorthand for =E2=80=
=9Clatna fe zi'o
zi'o=E2=80=9D :)

If you want to express that something is absent, you probably want to
use =E2=80=9Cno da=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9Cnothing=E2=80=9D).


Other semantical problems:

> b0. .i mi facki lo kakne mi
> I discover the ability of myself.
Nope. x2 must be a bridi. =E2=80=9Clo kakne=E2=80=9D means
What you probably want here is an indirect question (=E2=80=9Cma kau=E2=80=
=9D) word.
An indirect question is a way to specifiy something without mentioning
it explicitly, by using question words.

Here is what I suggest as alternative:
=E2=80=9C.i mi facki lo du'u ma kau se kakne mi=E2=80=9D
=3D =E2=80=9CI discover WHAT is/are the ability/abilities of me.=E2=80=9D
Note that the =E2=80=9CWHAT=E2=80=9D is the indirect question word in Engli=
sh here.


Careful here:
> b7. .i .o'enai mi nelci lo lenku
This means =E2=80=9Co'enai I am fond of something which is cold.=E2=80=9D (=
not the
cold-ness as an state!)

> c3. .einai                                   =20
> Freedom.
Please note that =E2=80=9C.einai=E2=80=9D is an attidudinal. This is more l=
ike
=E2=80=9CFreedom!=E2=80=9D, you are expressing that you feel free (or so I =
understood
this attituduinal). Note this means freedom FROM something.

> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse
Quoted directly from the CLL:
=E2=80=9CThe cmavo =E2=80=98pe'a=E2=80=99 is the indicator of figurative sp=
eech, indicating
that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than
literally:=E2=80=9D
I don=E2=80=99t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, implyi=
ng
that you use Lojban=E2=80=99s grammar as a metaphor. XD
I *think* =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D belongs after =E2=80=9Ccermurse=E2=80=9D. =
But I really don=E2=80=99t know.
The CLL is not very clear on how to use =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D.


Questoins:
> a1: Should I use {lo} in place of {le} here?
It depends. If you meant =E2=80=9Ccmana=E2=80=9D literally, use =E2=80=9Clo=
=E2=80=9D. If you meant =E2=80=9Cthe
thing which I describe as mountaion but is not neccessarily actually a
mountain=E2=80=9D. The =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D is useful if you want to refer =
to something but
just quite don=E2=80=99t know which word.
Please note I am using an accepted proposal called =E2=80=9Cxorlo=E2=80=9D
here. Please read up on it, it is NOT documented in the CLL!
> a3: Is {loi} correct here? or should it be {lo} or {lo'i}?
=E2=80=9Cloi=E2=80=9D is correct, as you are obviously referring to the peo=
ple as a
mass. You don=E2=80=99t care about the indivuduals here (=E2=80=9Clo=E2=80=
=9D)

> a7: I am made to understand that it is ok to use {ko} to command
>oneself if the context makes this usage evident.
This is okay. If everything fails, you can always use =E2=80=9Cdoi=E2=80=9D=
 to
explicitly say to whom you are talking to. Although it sounds funny to
say =E2=80=9Cdoi mi ko co'e=E2=80=9D but it is certainly possible. (=E2=80=
=9CO me, do this!=E2=80=9D)

> a0: Is {ri} used correctly here?
Yes. =E2=80=9Cri=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9Cle tcadu=E2=80=9D here.

> b4: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here?
No.

> c2: Can {zi'o} be used in this way?
No. I discussed the reason above.

> c3: The problem is that it technically modifies {mi}, but there is a
> pause in the song, so it should be ok, right?
No. It is still part of the same text, therefore part of the same song,
and therefore a seperation is required, otherwise, it sticks to =E2=80=9Cmi=
=E2=80=9D.
It does not MODIFY =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D, it just means that you have this p=
articular
feeling of freedom towards =E2=80=9Cmi=E2=80=9D.

> d3: Is {noroi} used correctly here?
> d3. .i mi noroi xruti lo sevzi lo purci
> I am never returning myself to a state from the past.
Yes. =E2=80=9Croi=E2=80=9D means =E2=80=9Cn times=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cnor=
oi=E2=80=9D literally means =E2=80=9Czero times=E2=80=9D.
Note this sentence is vague on the time here. I don=E2=80=99t know if
this is intentional.
Note there are also other ways to say =E2=80=9Cnever=E2=80=9D in Lojban.

But now I am to lazy to comment the rest of your text and answer the
rest of your questions. There are some other things in the text I didn=E2=
=80=99t
like, but I just skipped them. :P

I hope it helped anyways.


--=20
Wuzzy
XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
E-Mail: wuzzy2@mail.ru

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