Received: from mail-oa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.219.56]:46195) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WuUIg-000110-E9 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:56 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id l6sf449122oag.11 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4A/VwB/vBdWgM20RAVglPC+xjOsZSf6k1wUN1nWxNMg=; b=hO9jjw26aly8SnPpFm14bzMaaRNfBO6ks5ejpv5CCR2O56RkwTS2fgXKEfqWFlh996 ob9KZVMWKIsLWu0SgSW+14ImCXnZgSzO6oUiwo+1HSGn0MzOMBeGuU9qHDXLv1ojUJJ5 f2V1NOuX3fWJIkUaNZ1fjWSWmTrTY87yWzpWz+ZAiDuVZHkO+OuKvTbJvv3+7xnPkBBQ GA3AX/c712jSr5ZzNNC48MYBLcaxAZomVcspDduYc7ucHjnUalpKSlC11oS8pXphMcx9 XwB0bEbViOPlz1SVN6E92HCpLN2ZhH4Nf4aTWXea6GcM6kg1Z46YjgIWxyWJD4/ukhA0 Vm2A== X-Received: by 10.140.47.201 with SMTP id m67mr65136qga.29.1402438424362; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.89.104 with SMTP id u95ls2380589qgd.5.gmail; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.35.5 with SMTP id t5mr1212218yha.9.1402438423840; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22c.google.com (mail-ve0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pr8si1444426vdb.1.2014.06.10.15.13.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c; Received: by mail-ve0-f172.google.com with SMTP id jz11so5045621veb.17 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.185.72 with SMTP id fa8mr3924vdc.12.1402438423671; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:13:43 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec548a66d0ff83304fb82a436 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec548a66d0ff83304fb82a436 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > punji2 or punji3 being a property? > With the "property as a portable possession" metaphor, punji2 could be a property of punji3. That's the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu where that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment. With the "property as a location" metaphor, used for example in denpa3 and in xruti3 and xruti4 (or xruti2 and xruti3 with my preferred version of xruti), then it would be the other way around, punji3 a property of punji2: doi nobli .e'o ko punji lo ka virnu kei lo mi risna "Lord, put courage into my heart!" lo skina pu punji mi lo ka gleki cinmo "The movie put me in a happy mood." > not sure how to use properties in {jmina}. > lo sfofa cu jmina lo ka se kufra kei lo kumfa The sofa adds comfort to the room. jbera2=property of x3? > Of x1 I would say. > cuxna2= any type, property of x1? > Yes (and in that case cuxna3 should also be a plural number of properties of x1. sarji. any examples with a property? > x4 could be a property of x1. > ferti2. is it to be a metaphor when property is used? > I don't think the line between metaphor and literalness is clear in all this. > xaksu2? > ko'a xaksu lo ka citno > tisna2? > ko'a tisna lo ka jgira ralte2 being a property sounds strange. {mi ralte lo ka bilma}? If so it > should have a different gloss rather than just "to keep". > It doesn't work well with non-agentive properties such as bilma, you need an agentive property, a property that x1 could be responsible for keeping: ko'a ralte lo ka catke lo karce mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec548a66d0ff83304fb82a436 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Gleki Arxokuna &= lt;gleki.is= .my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

punji2 or punji= 3 being a property?

With the "property as a portabl= e possession" metaphor, punji2 could be a property of punji3. That'= ;s the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu where that= the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment.

With the "property as a location" metaphor, u= sed for example in denpa3 and in xruti3 and xruti4 (or xruti2 and xruti3 wi= th my preferred version of xruti), then it would be the other way around, p= unji3 a property of punji2:

doi nobli .e'o ko punji lo ka virnu kei lo mi risna=
"Lord, put courage into my heart!"

lo skina pu punji mi lo ka gleki cinmo
"The movie put = me in a happy mood."=C2=A0
=C2=A0
not sure how to use properties in {jmina}.

lo sfofa cu jmina lo ka se kufra kei lo kumfa
The sofa adds comfort to the room.
=C2=A0

jbera2=3Dproperty of x3?
<= /div>

Of x1 I would say.
=C2=A0
cux= na2=3D any type, property of x1?

Yes (and in that case cuxna3 should also be a plural number of propert= ies of x1.=C2=A0

sarji. any examples = with a property?

x4 coul= d be a property of x1.
=C2=A0
ferti2. is it to be a metaphor= when property is used?

I don't think the line between m= etaphor and literalness is clear in all this.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
xaksu2?
=

ko'a xaksu lo ka citno
=C2=A0
tisna2?

ko'a tisna lo ka jgira=C2=A0

ralte2 being a property sounds strange. {mi ral= te lo ka bilma}? If so it should have a different gloss rather than just &q= uot;to keep".

It doesn't work well with non-ag= entive properties such as bilma, you need an agentive property, a property = that x1 could be responsible for keeping:

=C2=A0 k= o'a ralte lo ka catke lo karce

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--bcaec548a66d0ff83304fb82a436--