Received: from mail-la0-f58.google.com ([209.85.215.58]:53671) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WucwL-00049o-KX for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:33 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f58.google.com with SMTP id s18sf925301lam.23 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UtiOItmm4LayWkZb4WWJsZleOTTVOE+0rP8H+LGOZ1E=; b=BekHt5ws/dLrwKdEPr1SLKQAGvrXAA33fgKFb7oecIrXgOMwpZir4SwUfnq6i4nj2Q uVk3kCROtLIS8+pvvoWXsXuNu8SHES+xVVAOYpQ789b5pyQjVnh0aEcUkBdf2tBUH9mk TaBdXckpSaTCMGmoGxU/Kqgbd05blHl2CgLDRKH6K2J8AgsuX/pci+YFpRUVFLImgh8O hwISpzSWTRHa6SFp09n+Tdn6dlTka4gm5egkT/RvqX85Xvi0ki/rhIqh6H6n8g7rE86H NNFtIEe6JzLRgB/YvC52Ne45md8sn3TQsWMYcpO1lZI2dDdidv1UmkuUGaJKYaJnZI/l /9ng== X-Received: by 10.152.26.129 with SMTP id l1mr463lag.38.1402471634008; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.38 with SMTP id x6ls372770lax.38.gmail; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.50.203 with SMTP id e11mr40149lbo.23.1402471633317; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4si1250634wib.2.2014.06.11.00.27.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id y10so2629826wgg.32 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.93.163 with SMTP id cv3mr36772147wib.3.1402471633128; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jun 2014 00:27:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 11:27:13 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438953980178104fb8a5f7c X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d0438953980178104fb8a5f7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-11 2:13 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> punji2 or punji3 being a property? >> > > With the "property as a portable possession" metaphor, punji2 could be a > property of punji3. > That's the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu where that > the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment. > > With the "property as a location" metaphor, used for example in denpa3 > done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 and in xruti3 and xruti4 (or xruti2 and xruti3 with my preferred version of > xruti), > done. {xruti} is absent from my list. {volve} (non-agentive {xruti}) is fixed. > then it would be the other way around, punji3 a property of punji2: > > doi nobli .e'o ko punji lo ka virnu kei lo mi risna > "Lord, put courage into my heart!" > > lo skina pu punji mi lo ka gleki cinmo > "The movie put me in a happy mood." > done. punji=3D x1 places or puts x2 (located, property of x3) at x3 (locate= d, property of x2). > >> not sure how to use properties in {jmina}. >> > > lo sfofa cu jmina lo ka se kufra kei lo kumfa > The sofa adds comfort to the room. > done. Well, I guess jmina3 being a property of jmina2 is impossible? > > jbera2=3Dproperty of x3? >> > > Of x1 I would say. > > >> cuxna2=3D any type, property of x1? >> > > Yes (and in that case cuxna3 should also be a plural number of properties > of x1. > fixed. cuxna=3Dx1 chooses x2 (any type, property of x1) from complete set x= 3 (plural of same type as x2) > > sarji. any examples with a property? >> > > x4 could be a property of x1. > > >> ferti2. is it to be a metaphor when property is used? >> > > I don't think the line between metaphor and literalness is clear in all > this. > not sure how to use {ferti2} as a property. > > >> xaksu2? >> > > ko'a xaksu lo ka citno > .uanai. I just can't add this example. I can consume energy but consume my property... May be better examples? This one is a metaphor and the one that I can't find analogies in English. > >> tisna2? >> > > ko'a tisna lo ka jgira > tisna =3D x1 fills with material x2 (property of x1); x2 pours into x1 > > ralte2 being a property sounds strange. {mi ralte lo ka bilma}? If so it >> should have a different gloss rather than just "to keep". >> > > It doesn't work well with non-agentive properties such as bilma, you need > an agentive property, a property that x1 could be responsible for keeping= : > > ko'a ralte lo ka catke lo karce > fixed. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d0438953980178104fb8a5f7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-11 2:13 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>:



On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

punji2 or punji3 being a property?

With the "property as a p= ortable possession" metaphor, punji2 could be a property of punji3.
That's the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu = where that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment.

With the "property as a location" metaphor, u= sed for example in denpa3

done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1=C2=A0

and in xruti3 and xruti4 (or xruti2 and xruti3 with my preferred version = of xruti),

done. {x= ruti} is absent from my list. {volve} (non-agentive {xruti}) is fixed.

=C2=A0
then it would be the other way around, pun= ji3 a property of punji2:

doi nobli .e'o ko punji lo ka virnu kei lo mi risna=
"Lord, put courage into my heart!"

lo skina pu punji mi lo ka gleki cinmo
"The movie put = me in a happy mood."=C2=A0

done. punji=3D x1 places= or puts x2 (located, property of x3) at x3 (located, property of x2).

=C2=A0
not sure how to use properties in {jmina}.

lo sfofa cu jmina lo ka se kufra kei lo kumfa
The sofa adds comfort to the room.

done. Well, I guess jmina3 being a property of jmina= 2 =C2=A0is impossible?

=C2=A0

jbera2=3Dproperty of x3?
<= /div>

Of x1 I would say.
=C2=A0
cux= na2=3D any type, property of x1?

Yes (and in that case cuxna3 should also be a plural number of p= roperties of x1.=C2=A0

<= div>fixed. cuxna=3Dx1 chooses x2 (any type, property of x1) from complete s= et x3 (plural of same type as x2)=C2=A0

sarji. any examples = with a property?

x4 could be a property of x1.
=C2=A0
ferti2. is it to be a metaphor when property= is used?

I don't think the line bet= ween metaphor and literalness is clear in all this.
=

not sure how to use {ferti2} =C2=A0as a pr= operty.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
xaksu2?
=

ko'a xaksu lo ka citno

.uanai. I just can't add t= his example. I can consume energy but consume my property... May be better = examples? This one is a metaphor and the one that I can't find analogie= s in English.

=C2=A0
tisna2?

ko'a tisna lo ka jgira=C2=A0

tisna =3D x1 fills wit= h material x2 (property of x1); x2 pours into x1=C2=A0

ralte2 being a property sounds strange. {mi ral= te lo ka bilma}? If so it should have a different gloss rather than just &q= uot;to keep".

It doesn't work well with = non-agentive properties such as bilma, you need an agentive property, a pro= perty that x1 could be responsible for keeping:

=C2=A0 ko'a ralte lo ka catke lo karce

fixed.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=C2=A0

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