Received: from mail-la0-f58.google.com ([209.85.215.58]:46647) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wvs9I-00081W-IK for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:57 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f58.google.com with SMTP id s18sf374792lam.3 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=F4B8igq5jME2Bg5vG5tjYRkcWFhqykl6c/S1NMc/NCg=; b=YuI92aBxaIONc8btbjghfL/DZgZGESwYNN51DI3JKVh5PUpX+lItNH4KYhArVzk9Mo Cpxk2V/LtZASKmTHfB+PFcBFRjE4ZMqWVXfCAbIiBrNR0c+iiKr3RtbyCluE/1SS4ut5 pmR5YvT8ayWLa7jF7skyTUyLATg8LqzCK5lwct4USYXudcjtF6qZDTP9TSw6zYsYa5Kb mHK4S7YHniduZ9ZxJJm6JznQ5G/bOkjZAkBX/k26mvy8pvOVER9xgz/mq8a8AlMk/QZp A6xZkmCW+0XBY4DJt3ITi/AyAEjjrGaJUFJqgoOhs2eMDYx4W6vqn3MIj9osyPM3JANd EV0Q== X-Received: by 10.152.28.101 with SMTP id a5mr89082lah.4.1402768424618; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.30.73 with SMTP id q9ls652019lah.23.gmail; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.13.36 with SMTP id e4mr34135lbc.11.1402768423990; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22f.google.com (mail-wg0-x22f.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz10si168523wib.0.2014.06.14.10.53.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f; Received: by mail-wg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id k14so3916543wgh.6 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.62.176 with SMTP id z16mr5015987wjr.76.1402768423801; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 21:53:43 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba979c29a61ea04fbcf79b1 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- --047d7ba979c29a61ea04fbcf79b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As of now I suggest that we have the following types: 1. "numeral" 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" doesn't interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can always include "thing") 4. other subtypes of "thing": "sound", "text" As of "located" it is to be replaced either with "property" of with "thing" where appropriate. 2014-06-14 21:29 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>>> punji2 or punji3 being a property? >>>> >>> >>> With the "property as a portable possession" metaphor, punji2 could be = a >>> property of punji3. >>> >> That's the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu where >>> that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment. >>> >>> With the "property as a location" metaphor, used for example in denpa3 >>> >> >> done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 >> > > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession > places, but I think that's wrong. > Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only "property" but not a "located"? > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, not > the main one. > I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. > Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a place where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place? And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. "dunda lo > plise" is the basic sense, "dunda lo ka ponse lo plise" is a derived > abstraction. "denpa fi lo panka" is the basic sense, "denpa fi lo ka zvat= i > lo panka" is a derived abstraction. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7ba979c29a61ea04fbcf79b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As of now I suggest that we have the following types:=
1. "numeral"
2. "thing" (can b= e an object, an event but not a property). "thing" doesn't in= teract with other te sumti of the same brivla.
3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitte= d, thus it can always include "thing")
4. other sub= types of "thing": "sound", "text"

As of "located" it is to be replaced either with &= quot;property" of with "thing" where appropriate.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">

2014-06-14 21:= 29 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:<= br>



On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

punji2 or punji3 being a property?

With the "property as a p= ortable possession" metaphor, punji2 could be a property of punji3.
That's the metaphor we've been talking about for all those gismu = where that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment.

With the "property as a location" metaphor, u= sed for example in denpa3

done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1

I notice that you have left only properties in mo= st of the possession places, but I think that's wrong.

Well, do you mean that there might = be places that allow only "property" but not a "located"= ;?

=C2=A0
The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, = not the main one.

I= don't distinguish secondary and main meanings.
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
The main meaning should be for the concrete possession.
=

Then why not just state that our ad = hoc term "property" denotes a place =C2=A0where the main meaning = is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place?

And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. "= ;dunda lo plise" is the basic sense, "dunda lo ka ponse lo plise&= quot; is a derived abstraction. "denpa fi lo panka" is the basic = sense, "denpa fi lo ka zvati lo panka" is a derived abstraction.<= /div>

=C2=A0

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7ba979c29a61ea04fbcf79b1--