Received: from mail-ve0-f191.google.com ([209.85.128.191]:44431) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WvtNM-0000AO-TK for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:38 -0700 Received: by mail-ve0-f191.google.com with SMTP id i13sf274303veh.28 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2zENvPF5Zw584Eti51Mymx2RoPVuOmJM/9ZU194JqME=; b=xNay6wpXbANC+DYArxtD4BCZjt+Ku0wxZJEqy/1QXhzfxqQleW3u6KH28WI1NxlVAy 3ksi9gNHbz8CzJZhDJdbo0dYfyMwHQFDSeLbDtC9oiwCEY0LC5zXL70w2Y83ui3AxWdl bvz6QJ7L0L651M9WbnVDR9E/HtTFftf6a6FdCHDcJNqh8s+pz0t0fz8h0cAqNsUj/EFx gZoClJr3+Asx06+UtfvAp1EJw9uUdAmlIY3kdp/fmBjECNa2mEEmlcKcPrLbkkorfJ2A BKgQAcFLDX6BpsNDokX2B6gYq2YUvEgcZNnVbc+tShiYvKK5sTH2n18EcoeDjUPanAu/ Ynrg== X-Received: by 10.182.29.65 with SMTP id i1mr48311obh.12.1402773142587; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.55.98 with SMTP id r2ls1688367obp.77.gmail; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.24.104 with SMTP id t8mr917788obf.34.1402773141855; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22f.google.com (mail-ve0-x22f.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ds6si348647vdb.0.2014.06.14.12.12.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f; Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id jx11so1870989veb.6 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.165.6 with SMTP id g6mr7667331vcy.17.1402773141686; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jun 2014 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:12:21 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3576ccf8f6704fbd092c4 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c3576ccf8f6704fbd092c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > As of now I suggest that we have the following types: > 1. "numeral" > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u "5" is a numeral. li mu cu namcu Five is a number. > 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" > doesn't interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. > But a brivla always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. Besides, even if we are talking about interactions with property arguments, the places for the thing-with-property will normally be places for things. How could we say that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can always > include "thing") > By "omitted" do you mean not stated explicitly, or not present even implicitly? If you mean the first, that's fine, we can say that "lo ka ce'u broda" and "lo ka broda" both refer to the same property even though "ce'u" is omitted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are you saying that "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitted? I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession >> places, but I think that's wrong. >> > > Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only "property" > but not a "located"? > ckaji2 would be the prime candidate for that. There are lots of places that have traditionally been considered to be only for properties (mutce2, simlu2, etc.) I can see how these too could be repurposed, but that's a whole new discussion. The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, not >> the main one. >> > > I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. > I meant we should not throw away the basic meanings in favor of more abstract extensions. It doesn't matter whether we call the extension secondary or not, it should not annihilate the original source meaning. The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. >> > > Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a place > where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a > {ce'u}-place? > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for doing this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that doesn't match the usual sense of that word? mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3576ccf8f6704fbd092c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
As of now I suggest that we have the= following types:
1. "numeral"

A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number.

zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u
"5" is= a numeral.

li mu cu namcu
Five is a number.
= =C2=A0
2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but = not a property). "thing" doesn't interact with other te sumti= of the same brivla.

But a briv= la always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. Besides, even if= we are talking about interactions with property arguments, the places for = the thing-with-property will normally be places for things. How could we sa= y that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? =C2=A0

3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitte= d, thus it can always include "thing")

By "omitted" do you mean not stated explici= tly, or not present even implicitly? If you mean the first, that's fine= , we can say that "lo ka ce'u broda" and "lo ka broda&qu= ot; both refer to the same property even though "ce'u" is omi= tted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are you saying th= at "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitted?=C2= =A0
=C2=A0

I notice that you have left only properties= in most of the possession places, but I think that's wrong.

Well, do you mean that = there might be places that allow only "property" but not a "= located"?

ckaji2 would be the prim= e candidate for that. There are lots of places that have traditionally been= considered to be only for properties (mutce2, simlu2, etc.) I can see how = these too could be repurposed, but that's a whole new discussion.
=C2=A0

The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, = not the main one.

=
I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings.

I meant we should not throw away the= basic meanings in favor of more abstract extensions. It doesn't matter= whether we call the extension secondary or not, it should not annihilate t= he original source meaning.=C2=A0

The main meaning should be for the concrete possession.
=

Then why not just state that o= ur ad hoc term "property" denotes a place =C2=A0where the main me= aning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place?

But then wouldn't yo= u be losing track of your original purpose for doing this? Wouldn't it = be misleading to use "property" in a way that doesn't match t= he usual sense of that word?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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