Received: from mail-wi0-f183.google.com ([209.85.212.183]:53255) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Ww5oq-0003lC-1o for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:46 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f183.google.com with SMTP id ho1sf233017wib.10 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AGl38IEuZWxkGeZqu6wcair8JXwjTfNmUBToUGj+3V0=; b=DtX29bw+vvWhVF/crT61k0rDDJyzkPthArmW0hlDWQ6/o9VT/9Hk0qVyavYU/WFhCo zTCi48FNX8gXOq5d26Mf1gYrEVunD0R+aDsc/VWURcozm8Le01DrrN/TPFc8bqL4tUfO kYd7aL40JyqbfLvzOR6JH0IxljpZJfTbu8oz+dfzBLpw4wflDXhjp2OfjubbYUm3J2ug +j5AJ3ziu6T6QaCgiTHDuDxYd0KfOqLEKikjYlIdkPmf71i27zp7T1TwuIclpPhfVtmF iMqIZ6f3y6TMjrUD/PQ8WxnsMuP9csCPqGUpdsbh5IaVVDqQGBXrhTngnanTNTwedgdv wiaQ== X-Received: by 10.180.90.7 with SMTP id bs7mr38156wib.7.1402820972750; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.5.131 with SMTP id s3ls137002wis.11.canary; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.72.97 with SMTP id c1mr208877wiv.2.1402820972003; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r13si302549wib.0.2014.06.15.01.29.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::232; Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id x13so4274541wgg.21 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.62.176 with SMTP id z16mr1653612wjr.76.1402820971826; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jun 2014 01:29:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 12:29:31 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba979c2b5968304fbdbb521 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7ba979c2b5968304fbdbb521 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located" back, changed djeni4 to "property of x1". Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")? All possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion interactions". Please inform if I missed any. So we have 1. number 2. property but not located 3. located but not property. 4. subtypes So if we see any property place that can take a value which would never interact with other places then a "located" should be added as a possible type to it. The same for "located". If it can interact with other places then it is also a "property" (or only a "property"). 2014-06-14 23:12 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types: >> 1. "numeral" >> > > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. > Sorry, then it should be 1. "number" > > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u > "5" is a numeral. > > li mu cu namcu > Five is a number. > > >> 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" >> doesn't interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. >> > > But a brivla always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. > Besides, even if we are talking about interactions with property argument= s, > the places for the thing-with-property will normally be places for things= . > How could we say that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? > > 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can always >> include "thing") >> > > By "omitted" do you mean not stated explicitly, or not present even > implicitly? If you mean the first, that's fine, we can say that "lo ka ce= 'u > broda" and "lo ka broda" both refer to the same property even though "ce'= u" > is omitted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are you > saying that "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitted? > > > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession >>> places, but I think that's wrong. >>> >> >> Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only "property" >> but not a "located"? >> > > ckaji2 would be the prime candidate for that. There are lots of places > that have traditionally been considered to be only for properties (mutce2= , > simlu2, etc.) I can see how these too could be repurposed, but that's a > whole new discussion. > > > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, >>> not the main one. >>> >> >> I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. >> > > I meant we should not throw away the basic meanings in favor of more > abstract extensions. It doesn't matter whether we call the extension > secondary or not, it should not annihilate the original source meaning. > > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. >>> >> >> Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a place >> where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a >> {ce'u}-place? >> > > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for doing > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that doesn't > match the usual sense of that word? > for me "property" is a place that can interact with other places with {ce'u}. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7ba979c2b5968304fbdbb521 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located&= quot; back, changed djeni4 to "property of x1".
Should kavbu2= be a property too ("I caught cold")?

Al= l possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion interactio= ns". Please inform if I missed any.

So we have
1. number
2. property bu= t not located
3. located but not property.
4. subtypes<= /div>

So if we see any property place that can take a va= lue which would never interact with other places then a "located"= should be added as a possible type to it.=C2=A0
The same for "located". If it can interact with other places= then it is also a "property" (or only a "property").



2014-06-14 23:12 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

=
On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
As of now I suggest that we have the= following types:
1. "numeral"

A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a numbe= r.
Sorry, then it should be=C2=A0<= /div>
1. "number"
=C2=A0

zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u
"5" is a numeral.

li mu cu namcu
Five is a number.
=C2=A0
2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but = not a property). "thing" doesn't interact with other te sumti= of the same brivla.

But = a brivla always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. Besides, e= ven if we are talking about interactions with property arguments, the place= s for the thing-with-property will normally be places for things. How could= we say that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? =C2=A0

3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitte= d, thus it can always include "thing")

By "omitted" do you mean not stated e= xplicitly, or not present even implicitly? If you mean the first, that'= s fine, we can say that "lo ka ce'u broda" and "lo ka br= oda" both refer to the same property even though "ce'u" = is omitted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are you say= ing that "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitt= ed?=C2=A0
=C2=A0

I notice that you have left only properties= in most of the possession places, but I think that's wrong.

Well, do you mean that = there might be places that allow only "property" but not a "= located"?

ckaji2 would be th= e prime candidate for that. There are lots of places that have traditionall= y been considered to be only for properties (mutce2, simlu2, etc.) I can se= e how these too could be repurposed, but that's a whole new discussion.=
=C2=A0

The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, = not the main one.

=
I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings.

I meant we should not throw aw= ay the basic meanings in favor of more abstract extensions. It doesn't = matter whether we call the extension secondary or not, it should not annihi= late the original source meaning.=C2=A0

The main meaning should be for the concrete possession.
=

Then why not just state that o= ur ad hoc term "property" denotes a place =C2=A0where the main me= aning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place?

But then wouldn= 9;t you be losing track of your original purpose for doing this? Wouldn'= ;t it be misleading to use "property" in a way that doesn't m= atch the usual sense of that word?

for me "property&qu= ot; is a place that can interact with other places with {ce'u}.
=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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