Received: from mail-la0-f63.google.com ([209.85.215.63]:57638) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WwV12-0004P0-0l for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:24:02 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f63.google.com with SMTP id e16sf280176lan.18 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=P3LgakIAAuKTygDQ/EbMq4PhYZI1HWZvZ+H8EHocADM=; b=s36xamqcsxkHEuzrC5ZmsLqxIcGmPx0lBhkZ15w96lklhvMjkd9J05gdVOxJnmmlQk 93Lxx95jn3qnfa7bDC6ll9TZ3XudYtTMJ3F+JBqpfYunnBtto+GjilNVM7A2QMC8VsUQ AhrdSIC2ycgvjyd3tDtZUuiQRja/0g2W3yfhajf60yPUv781G+w+s7MVuyC0SL9Yh21x EcNLSNVs9BwGjBS2/9VtvT2GhdJZoP/vAtApaPvBTWFwCM2xtwOaDatsjhxdJKANCbpZ w0hByY62yQ+3yxmZFrxwj+v95d+ooH+/+6bx5DWKMBc4qJrqdS1HImY1jTGJDOmIJyoP 2ZMw== X-Received: by 10.180.75.178 with SMTP id d18mr53443wiw.13.1402917828412; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.37.48 with SMTP id v16ls255752wij.49.gmail; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.82.98 with SMTP id h2mr1491852wiy.0.1402917827602; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x234.google.com (mail-we0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gc5si569786wic.1.2014.06.16.04.23.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of comcaresvcs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::234; Received: by mail-we0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x48so5481723wes.39 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.7.36 with SMTP id g4mr27680633wja.37.1402917827468; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.11.194 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.11.194 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <047d7b604714cce01804fbe33493@google.com> References: <047d7b604714cce01804fbe33493@google.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 07:23:47 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 9 updates in 2 topics From: Creative Care Services To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: comcaresvcs@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of comcaresvcs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=comcaresvcs@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b450a7cc1648b04fbf2427c X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b450a7cc1648b04fbf2427c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wait a minute.... At the end of the included post Jorge makes a statement I find very wrong. He says he doesn't see a problem using kavbu for the phrase "caught a cold." I do not believe this is the concept behind kavbu, and I find it horribly malglico. You can certainly catch things unintentionally, like a bug in your mouth when it flys in. The problem I have is that a cold is not something you catch in concept, but rather something that invades or attacks you. "Catch a cold" is an idiom. .karis Karen Stein On Jun 15, 2014 1:26 PM, wrote: > Today's topic summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/topics > > - Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete > <#146a0909b7a16e6e_group_thread_0> [3 Updates] > - Possession/transfer/exchange predicates > <#146a0909b7a16e6e_group_thread_1> [6 Updates] > > Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete > > > Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 12:33PM +0400 > > Most important grammar words are now in "klesi B=3DGrammar word". > > I removed most places from them. In order to express "language" places > I > added {uenzi}=3D"x1 is a text in language x2" (etymology: Chinese > "w=C3=A9nz=C3=AC") > since {bangu3} has to be specially treated to be converted into "text"= . > > > > > > > Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 02:53PM +0400 > > Other news. Semantic categorization. Any given tag can now be found no= t > more than in one column. So if you selected "Links" in "klesi C" you > can > now be sure that you didn't miss other words with the same tag in othe= r > coumns. > > > > > > > "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 15 10:28AM -0300 > > Looking at the places tagged as "plural": > > simxu1 - OK > casnu1 - OK > jmaji1 - missing > porsi1 - I disagree. > rilti1 - no idea > > fenso2 - OK > liste2 - OK > linji2 - OK > plita2 - OK? > sarni2 - ? > lanzu2 - since the definition is "including x2" then it doesn't have > to be > a plural, "lo lanzu be mi", "my family". > gunma2 - missing > bakfu2 - missing (I think it should be a complete specification) > derxi2 - same > stura2 - same > trene2 - same > cecmu2 - same > bende2 - same > mixre2 - same > > porsi3 - OK > snuji3 - OK > cuxna3 - OK > ciste3 - missing > > pruce4 - OK > farvi4 - OK > pluta4 - OK > kruvi4 - OK? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > Possession/transfer/exchange predicates > > > "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 02:29PM -0300 > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment. > > >> With the "property as a location" metaphor, used for example in > denpa3 > > > done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 > > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession > places, but I think that's wrong. The property-as-possession metaphor > should be the secondary meaning, not the main one. The main meaning > should > be for the concrete possession. And the same should apply to the > property-as-location metaphor. "dunda lo plise" is the basic sense, > "dunda > lo ka ponse lo plise" is a derived abstraction. "denpa fi lo panka" is > the > basic sense, "denpa fi lo ka zvati lo panka" is a derived abstraction. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > > Gleki Arxokuna Jun 14 09:53PM +0400 > > As of now I suggest that we have the following types: > 1. "numeral" > 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" > doesn't > interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. > 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can > always > include "thing") > 4. other subtypes of "thing": "sound", "text" > > As of "located" it is to be replaced either with "property" of with > "thing" > where appropriate. > > > > >> done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 > > > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possessio= n > > places, but I think that's wrong. > > Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only > "property" but > not a "located"? > > > > > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, > not > > the main one. > > I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. > > > > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. > > Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a plac= e > where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a > {ce'u}-place? > > And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. "dunda > lo > > > > > "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 04:12PM -0300 > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > As of now I suggest that we have the following types: > > 1. "numeral" > > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. > > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u > "5" is a numeral. > > li mu cu namcu > Five is a number. > > > > 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" > > doesn't interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. > > But a brivla always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. > Besides, even if we are talking about interactions with property > arguments, > the places for the thing-with-property will normally be places for > things. > How could we say that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? > > 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can > always > > include "thing") > > By "omitted" do you mean not stated explicitly, or not present even > implicitly? If you mean the first, that's fine, we can say that "lo ka > ce'u > broda" and "lo ka broda" both refer to the same property even though > "ce'u" > is omitted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are yo= u > saying that "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitted? > > > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession > >> places, but I think that's wrong. > > > Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only > "property" > > but not a "located"? > > ckaji2 would be the prime candidate for that. There are lots of places > that > have traditionally been considered to be only for properties (mutce2, > simlu2, etc.) I can see how these too could be repurposed, but that's = a > whole new discussion. > > > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, > not > >> the main one. > > > I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. > > I meant we should not throw away the basic meanings in favor of more > abstract extensions. It doesn't matter whether we call the extension > secondary or not, it should not annihilate the original source meaning= . > > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. > > > Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a > place > > where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a > > {ce'u}-place? > > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for > doing > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that doesn'= t > match the usual sense of that word? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > > "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 04:38PM -0300 > > On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > wrote: > > > > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u > > "5" is a numeral. > > > Actually... The Lojban is true, but the English should read "digit", > not > "numeral", "55" is a numeral too, but it's not a digit. "nacle'u" is > "digit", and "nacysni" is better for "numeral". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > > Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 12:29PM +0400 > > Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located" back, changed > djeni4 > to "property of x1". > Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")? > > All possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion > interactions". Please inform if I missed any. > > So we have > 1. number > 2. property but not located > 3. located but not property. > 4. subtypes > > So if we see any property place that can take a value which would neve= r > interact with other places then a "located" should be added as a > possible > type to it. > The same for "located". If it can interact with other places then it i= s > also a "property" (or only a "property"). > > > > > >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types: > >> 1. "numeral" > > > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. > > Sorry, then it should be > 1. "number" > > > > > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for > doing > > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that > doesn't > > match the usual sense of that word? > > for me "property" is a place that can interact with other places with > {ce'u}. > > > > > > > "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 15 09:37AM -0300 > > On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")? > > I don't see why not. Most of the gloss words suggest kavbu2 is > something > that kavbu1 acquires intentionally, but "catch" can be unintentional. > Presumably when kavbu2 is a property, kavbu3 would be one as well. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b450a7cc1648b04fbf2427c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wait a minute.... At the end of the included post Jorge make= s a statement I find very wrong. He says he doesn't see a problem using= kavbu for the phrase "caught a cold." I do not believe this is t= he concept behind kavbu, and I find it horribly malglico. You can certainly= catch things unintentionally, like a bug in your mouth when it flys in. Th= e problem I have is that a cold is not something you catch in concept, but = rather something that invades or attacks you. "Catch a cold" is a= n idiom.

.karis
Karen Stein

On Jun 15, 2014 1:26 PM, <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Group: http://groups.google= .com/group/lojban/topics

=20 =20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 12:33P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Most important grammar words are now in "klesi B=3DGrammar word&= quot;.
    =C2=A0
    I removed most places from them. In order to express "language" p= laces I
    added {uenzi}=3D"x1 is a text in language x2" (etymology: Chinese= "w=C3=A9nz=C3=AC")
    since {bangu3} has to be specially treated to be converted into "text&= quot;.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 02:53P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Other news. Semantic categorization. Any given tag can now be found n= ot
    more than in one column. So if you selected "Links" in "kles= i C" you can
    now be sure that you didn't miss other words with the same tag in other=
    coumns.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20
    "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> Jun 15 1= 0:28AM -0300 =C2=A0

    Looking at the places tagged as "plural":
    =C2=A0
    simxu1 - OK
    casnu1 - OK
    jmaji1 - missing
    porsi1 - I disagree.
    rilti1 - no idea
    =C2=A0
    fenso2 - OK
    liste2 - OK
    linji2 - OK
    plita2 - OK?
    sarni2 - ?
    lanzu2 - since the definition is "including x2" then it doesn'= ;t have to be
    a plural, "lo lanzu be mi", "my family".
    gunma2 - missing
    bakfu2 - missing (I think it should be a complete specification)
    derxi2 - same
    stura2 - same
    trene2 - same
    cecmu2 - same
    bende2 - same
    mixre2 - same
    =C2=A0
    porsi3 - OK
    snuji3 - OK
    cuxna3 - OK
    ciste3 - missing
    =C2=A0
    pruce4 - OK
    farvi4 - OK
    pluta4 - OK
    kruvi4 - OK?
    =C2=A0
    mu'o mi'e xorxes

    =C2=A0

=20 =20 =20 =20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 14 09:53P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    As of now I suggest that we have the following types:
    1. "numeral"
    2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "= ;thing" doesn't
    interact with other te sumti of the same brivla.
    3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, th= us it can always
    include "thing")
    4. other subtypes of "thing": "sound", "text"=
    =C2=A0
    As of "located" it is to be replaced either with "property&q= uot; of with "thing"
    where appropriate.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    >> done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1
    =C2=A0
    > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession<= br> > places, but I think that's wrong.
    =C2=A0
    Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only "property= " but
    not a "located"?
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, n= ot
    > the main one.
    =C2=A0
    I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession.
    =C2=A0
    Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a= place
    where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place?
    =C2=A0
    And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. "dunda= lo

    =C2=A0

=20 =20
    "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> Jun 14 0= 4:38PM -0300 =C2=A0

    On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com><= br> wrote:
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u
    > "5" is a numeral.
    =C2=A0
    > Actually... The Lojban is true, but the English should read "digi= t", not
    "numeral", "55" is a numeral too, but it's not a di= git. "nacle'u" is
    "digit", and "nacysni" is better for "numeral"= ;.
    =C2=A0
    mu'o mi'e xorxes

    =C2=A0

=20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 12:29P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located" back,= changed djeni4
    to "property of x1".
    Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")?
    =C2=A0
    All possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion
    interactions". Please inform if I missed any.
    =C2=A0
    So we have
    1. number
    2. property but not located
    3. located but not property.
    4. subtypes
    =C2=A0
    So if we see any property place that can take a value which would never
    interact with other places then a "located" should be added as a = possible
    type to it.
    The same for "located". If it can interact with other places then= it is
    also a "property" (or only a "property").
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types:
    >> 1. "numeral"
    =C2=A0
    > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. =C2=A0
    Sorry, then it should be
    1. "number"
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for= doing
    > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a w= ay that doesn't
    > match the usual sense of that word?
    =C2=A0
    for me "property" is a place that can interact with other places = with
    {ce'u}.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20 =20

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--047d7b450a7cc1648b04fbf2427c--