Received: from mail-lb0-f191.google.com ([209.85.217.191]:38494) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wwccf-0001VU-6w for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:32 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f191.google.com with SMTP id c11sf602744lbj.8 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SET76MJUtxPxIdIxt9yoTntLVjPSRgtkkLaIDYLN508=; b=k6+a2My1PXg5kRFvESbx6mmyH6T5L9CrId8MjDgaRKorOqQNhSWtNLHbxt4aa/RwBK mJTX++3hKKNlflVMJvXBwV0O5zQxXY5fWNCy0SJryMCYS1U7mScTM6UXjHxKdizQkr2M PMX2JNfolV+s/as/eMobKesK+aSk8XRQp3x8jN5XmzPqJP4TC3zuzN6vnS1VSAsLPIOZ xRzoQuys1ciO9tuWqIgYURKHeiFC0+XLVVM0P48b/Z7nz//yozUX4DqwnKbr/dffY6/+ K19Z1fF9y3J011+2pJ8sQKHOo7UGzg8IfaDDTkYuFFQCmB1dg3vI4W+tt85ToCbTZ8KT MdDw== X-Received: by 10.180.90.7 with SMTP id bs7mr67836wib.7.1402947069609; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.87.136 with SMTP id ay8ls330283wib.11.gmail; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.89.70 with SMTP id bm6mr1767676wib.5.1402947068602; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz10si729737wib.0.2014.06.16.12.31.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::233; Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id w62so6328799wes.10 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.75.75 with SMTP id a11mr30476218wiw.3.1402947068466; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <047d7b604714cce01804fbe33493@google.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 23:31:08 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Digest for lojban@googlegroups.com - 9 updates in 2 topics From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04388e95a79b6204fbf91151 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04388e95a79b6204fbf91151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-16 15:23 GMT+04:00 Creative Care Services : > Wait a minute.... At the end of the included post Jorge makes a statement > I find very wrong. He says he doesn't see a problem using kavbu for the > phrase "caught a cold." I do not believe this is the concept behind kavbu= , > and I find it horribly malglico. You can certainly catch things > unintentionally, like a bug in your mouth when it flys in. The problem I > have is that a cold is not something you catch in concept, but rather > something that invades or attacks you. "Catch a cold" is an idiom. > > .karis > Karen Stein > "to catch" usually implies an intentional action but "catching cold" is usually unintentional thus {kavbu} won't work even if kavbu2 is a property. But there might be another opinion. Anyway, {cpacu lo ka bilma fi la .zuKAM.} might work anyway. > On Jun 15, 2014 1:26 PM, wrote: > >> Today's topic summary >> >> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/topics >> >> - Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete >> <#146a46b370833c44_146a0909b7a16e6e_group_thread_0> [3 Updates] >> - Possession/transfer/exchange predicates >> <#146a46b370833c44_146a0909b7a16e6e_group_thread_1> [6 Updates] >> >> Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete >> >> >> Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 12:33PM +0400 >> >> Most important grammar words are now in "klesi B=3DGrammar word". >> >> I removed most places from them. In order to express "language" >> places I >> added {uenzi}=3D"x1 is a text in language x2" (etymology: Chinese >> "w=C3=A9nz=C3=AC") >> since {bangu3} has to be specially treated to be converted into >> "text". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 02:53PM +0400 >> >> Other news. Semantic categorization. Any given tag can now be found >> not >> more than in one column. So if you selected "Links" in "klesi C" you >> can >> now be sure that you didn't miss other words with the same tag in >> other >> coumns. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 15 10:28AM -0300 >> >> Looking at the places tagged as "plural": >> >> simxu1 - OK >> casnu1 - OK >> jmaji1 - missing >> porsi1 - I disagree. >> rilti1 - no idea >> >> fenso2 - OK >> liste2 - OK >> linji2 - OK >> plita2 - OK? >> sarni2 - ? >> lanzu2 - since the definition is "including x2" then it doesn't have >> to be >> a plural, "lo lanzu be mi", "my family". >> gunma2 - missing >> bakfu2 - missing (I think it should be a complete specification) >> derxi2 - same >> stura2 - same >> trene2 - same >> cecmu2 - same >> bende2 - same >> mixre2 - same >> >> porsi3 - OK >> snuji3 - OK >> cuxna3 - OK >> ciste3 - missing >> >> pruce4 - OK >> farvi4 - OK >> pluta4 - OK >> kruvi4 - OK? >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> Possession/transfer/exchange predicates >> >> >> "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 02:29PM -0300 >> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> that the gismu list makes the "pedantically"comment. >> >> >> With the "property as a location" metaphor, used for example in >> denpa3 >> >> > done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 >> >> I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession >> places, but I think that's wrong. The property-as-possession metaphor >> should be the secondary meaning, not the main one. The main meaning >> should >> be for the concrete possession. And the same should apply to the >> property-as-location metaphor. "dunda lo plise" is the basic sense, >> "dunda >> lo ka ponse lo plise" is a derived abstraction. "denpa fi lo panka" >> is the >> basic sense, "denpa fi lo ka zvati lo panka" is a derived abstraction= . >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> >> Gleki Arxokuna Jun 14 09:53PM +0400 >> >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types: >> 1. "numeral" >> 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" >> doesn't >> interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. >> 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can >> always >> include "thing") >> 4. other subtypes of "thing": "sound", "text" >> >> As of "located" it is to be replaced either with "property" of with >> "thing" >> where appropriate. >> >> >> >> >> done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1 >> >> > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the >> possession >> > places, but I think that's wrong. >> >> Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only >> "property" but >> not a "located"? >> >> >> >> > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary >> meaning, not >> > the main one. >> >> I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. >> >> >> > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. >> >> Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a >> place >> where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a >> {ce'u}-place? >> >> And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. >> "dunda lo >> >> >> >> >> "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 04:12PM -0300 >> >> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > As of now I suggest that we have the following types: >> > 1. "numeral" >> >> A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. >> >> zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u >> "5" is a numeral. >> >> li mu cu namcu >> Five is a number. >> >> >> > 2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "thing" >> > doesn't interact with other te sumti of the same brivla. >> >> But a brivla always expresses a relationship among all of its sumti. >> Besides, even if we are talking about interactions with property >> arguments, >> the places for the thing-with-property will normally be places for >> things. >> How could we say that ckaji1 doesn't interact with ckaji2? >> >> 3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, thus it can >> always >> > include "thing") >> >> By "omitted" do you mean not stated explicitly, or not present even >> implicitly? If you mean the first, that's fine, we can say that "lo >> ka ce'u >> broda" and "lo ka broda" both refer to the same property even though >> "ce'u" >> is omitted in the second one. But you must mean something else. Are >> you >> saying that "lo plise" is a property with "ce'u" omitted? >> >> >> I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession >> >> places, but I think that's wrong. >> >> > Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only >> "property" >> > but not a "located"? >> >> ckaji2 would be the prime candidate for that. There are lots of >> places that >> have traditionally been considered to be only for properties (mutce2, >> simlu2, etc.) I can see how these too could be repurposed, but that's >> a >> whole new discussion. >> >> >> The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, >> not >> >> the main one. >> >> > I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings. >> >> I meant we should not throw away the basic meanings in favor of more >> abstract extensions. It doesn't matter whether we call the extension >> secondary or not, it should not annihilate the original source >> meaning. >> >> The main meaning should be for the concrete possession. >> >> > Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a >> place >> > where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is = a >> > {ce'u}-place? >> >> But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for >> doing >> this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that >> doesn't >> match the usual sense of that word? >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> >> "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 14 04:38PM -0300 >> >> On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas >> wrote: >> >> >> > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u >> > "5" is a numeral. >> >> > Actually... The Lojban is true, but the English should read >> "digit", not >> "numeral", "55" is a numeral too, but it's not a digit. "nacle'u" is >> "digit", and "nacysni" is better for "numeral". >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> >> Gleki Arxokuna Jun 15 12:29PM +0400 >> >> Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located" back, changed >> djeni4 >> to "property of x1". >> Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")? >> >> All possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion >> interactions". Please inform if I missed any. >> >> So we have >> 1. number >> 2. property but not located >> 3. located but not property. >> 4. subtypes >> >> So if we see any property place that can take a value which would >> never >> interact with other places then a "located" should be added as a >> possible >> type to it. >> The same for "located". If it can interact with other places then it >> is >> also a "property" (or only a "property"). >> >> >> >> >> >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types: >> >> 1. "numeral" >> >> > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number= . >> >> Sorry, then it should be >> 1. "number" >> >> >> >> > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for >> doing >> > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a way that >> doesn't >> > match the usual sense of that word? >> >> for me "property" is a place that can interact with other places with >> {ce'u}. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" Jun 15 09:37AM -0300 >> >> On Sun, Jun 15, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")? >> >> I don't see why not. Most of the gloss words suggest kavbu2 is >> something >> that kavbu1 acquires intentionally, but "catch" can be unintentional. >> Presumably when kavbu2 is a property, kavbu3 would be one as well. >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04388e95a79b6204fbf91151 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-16 15:23 GMT+04:00 Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs= @gmail.com>:

Wait a minute.... At the end = of the included post Jorge makes a statement I find very wrong. He says he = doesn't see a problem using kavbu for the phrase "caught a cold.&q= uot; I do not believe this is the concept behind kavbu, and I find it horri= bly malglico. You can certainly catch things unintentionally, like a bug in= your mouth when it flys in. The problem I have is that a cold is not somet= hing you catch in concept, but rather something that invades or attacks you= . "Catch a cold" is an idiom.

.karis
Karen Stein


"to catch" usuall= y implies an intentional action but "catching cold" is usually un= intentional thus {kavbu} won't work even if kavbu2 is a property.

But there might be another opinion.
Anyway, {= cpacu lo ka bilma fi la .zuKAM.} might work anyway.

=C2=A0
On Jun 15, 2014 1:26 PM, <lojban@googlegroups.com> = wrote:

Group: http://groups.google= .com/group/lojban/topics

=20 =20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 12:33P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Most important grammar words are now in "klesi B=3DGrammar word&= quot;.
    =C2=A0
    I removed most places from them. In order to express "language" p= laces I
    added {uenzi}=3D"x1 is a text in language x2" (etymology: Chinese= "w=C3=A9nz=C3=AC")
    since {bangu3} has to be specially treated to be converted into "text&= quot;.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 02:53P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Other news. Semantic categorization. Any given tag can now be found n= ot
    more than in one column. So if you selected "Links" in "kles= i C" you can
    now be sure that you didn't miss other words with the same tag in other=
    coumns.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20
    "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> Jun 15 1= 0:28AM -0300 =C2=A0

    Looking at the places tagged as "plural":
    =C2=A0
    simxu1 - OK
    casnu1 - OK
    jmaji1 - missing
    porsi1 - I disagree.
    rilti1 - no idea
    =C2=A0
    fenso2 - OK
    liste2 - OK
    linji2 - OK
    plita2 - OK?
    sarni2 - ?
    lanzu2 - since the definition is "including x2" then it doesn'= ;t have to be
    a plural, "lo lanzu be mi", "my family".
    gunma2 - missing
    bakfu2 - missing (I think it should be a complete specification)
    derxi2 - same
    stura2 - same
    trene2 - same
    cecmu2 - same
    bende2 - same
    mixre2 - same
    =C2=A0
    porsi3 - OK
    snuji3 - OK
    cuxna3 - OK
    ciste3 - missing
    =C2=A0
    pruce4 - OK
    farvi4 - OK
    pluta4 - OK
    kruvi4 - OK?
    =C2=A0
    mu'o mi'e xorxes

    =C2=A0

=20 =20 =20 =20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 14 09:53P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    As of now I suggest that we have the following types:
    1. "numeral"
    2. "thing" (can be an object, an event but not a property). "= ;thing" doesn't
    interact with other te sumti of the same brivla.
    3. "property" (can have ce'u or may have ce'u omitted, th= us it can always
    include "thing")
    4. other subtypes of "thing": "sound", "text"=
    =C2=A0
    As of "located" it is to be replaced either with "property&q= uot; of with "thing"
    where appropriate.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    >> done. denpa3 =3Dproperty of x1
    =C2=A0
    > I notice that you have left only properties in most of the possession<= br> > places, but I think that's wrong.
    =C2=A0
    Well, do you mean that there might be places that allow only "property= " but
    not a "located"?
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > The property-as-possession metaphor should be the secondary meaning, n= ot
    > the main one.
    =C2=A0
    I don't distinguish secondary and main meanings.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > The main meaning should be for the concrete possession.
    =C2=A0
    Then why not just state that our ad hoc term "property" denotes a= place
    where the main meaning is a non-{ce'u} place, and the secondary is a {ce'u}-place?
    =C2=A0
    And the same should apply to the property-as-location metaphor. "dunda= lo

    =C2=A0

=20 =20
    "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> Jun 14 0= 4:38PM -0300 =C2=A0

    On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com><= br> wrote:
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > zoi ke 5 ke cu nacle'u
    > "5" is a numeral.
    =C2=A0
    > Actually... The Lojban is true, but the English should read "digi= t", not
    "numeral", "55" is a numeral too, but it's not a di= git. "nacle'u" is
    "digit", and "nacysni" is better for "numeral"= ;.
    =C2=A0
    mu'o mi'e xorxes

    =C2=A0

=20
    Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> Jun 15 12:29P= M +0400 =C2=A0

    Okay, for most possession ralbrivla I added "located" back,= changed djeni4
    to "property of x1".
    Should kavbu2 be a property too ("I caught cold")?
    =C2=A0
    All possession ralbrivla are under "klesi B Action. Possesion
    interactions". Please inform if I missed any.
    =C2=A0
    So we have
    1. number
    2. property but not located
    3. located but not property.
    4. subtypes
    =C2=A0
    So if we see any property place that can take a value which would never
    interact with other places then a "located" should be added as a = possible
    type to it.
    The same for "located". If it can interact with other places then= it is
    also a "property" (or only a "property").
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    >> As of now I suggest that we have the following types:
    >> 1. "numeral"
    =C2=A0
    > A numeral is a thing, and the abstraction it represents is a number. =C2=A0
    Sorry, then it should be
    1. "number"
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    > But then wouldn't you be losing track of your original purpose for= doing
    > this? Wouldn't it be misleading to use "property" in a w= ay that doesn't
    > match the usual sense of that word?
    =C2=A0
    for me "property" is a place that can interact with other places = with
    {ce'u}.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

=20 =20

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--f46d04388e95a79b6204fbf91151--