Received: from mail-pb0-f56.google.com ([209.85.160.56]:54494) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WwevH-000316-PW for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:45 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f56.google.com with SMTP id rp16sf1416139pbb.21 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mcahToYvBpSB2SWTnt09+tlvZT5KT0pgdcAwCAG2Ayg=; b=TwKIlP5pL08CC9e0da2vE3FsaP27Yif+kKELKfSsrlxgZfkK977Tc5XSMfQ/ApNYFj moGa5A5TykkR4zyHERotMp9jGEiITY5szUMeDxgSezEFyvaHgs27Qv8nmzoBp6997XfJ Wft3FXrcuZfuJuipuduQVhgk2dqHtnaSTInrTYtJJ4euc58ZftrkhAfErcyJ4piVPBHc Vcb4uv74aJG5x806/yX2LMCFNlkvBquxQIx0Y0yX1wwsRwyRN6uexrYca35J+RKaZLYA AGFGCcqhI6q0zFnMqKIzwlzKRC8T/qn8aN5MIDQ5Rmwl2DJtQhqdT2zz3AnWNXq1w/BQ Flng== X-Received: by 10.182.249.111 with SMTP id yt15mr60930obc.9.1402955913850; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.114.200 with SMTP id ji8ls1879712obb.86.gmail; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.20.17 with SMTP id j17mr2073991obe.24.1402955913115; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x234.google.com (mail-vc0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l7si620524vda.3.2014.06.16.14.58.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::234; Received: by mail-vc0-x234.google.com with SMTP id im17so5433942vcb.25 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.40.193 with SMTP id tr1mr3633696vcb.31.1402955912899; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53903D84.90502@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:58:32 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11336a8ed2f29d04fbfb200d X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11336a8ed2f29d04fbfb200d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > >> porsi1 - I disagree. >> > > By ordered plural I mean {ce'o}, by "plural" I mean {jo'u}. > But what do you mean by "ce'o"? It has two competing definitions. I would define jo'u and ce'o as follows: (1) ko'a jo'u ko'e := zo'e noi ge ko'a .e ko'e me ke'a gi ro me ke'a cu me ko'a gi'a me ko'e (2a) ko'a ce'o ko'e := ko'a jo'u ko'e vu'o noi ko'a lidne ko'e But "ko'a ce'o ko'e" could also be defined as: (2b) ko'a ce'o ko'e := lo porsi be fi ko'a jo'u ko'e be'o noi ko'a lidne ko'e ke'a With definition (2a), "ko'a ce'o ko'e" is plural, with its referents forming a sequence. But "ko'a ce'o ko'e" doesn't refer to the sequence, it refers to the members of the sequence. With definition (2b), "ko'a ce'o ko'e" is singular, and its referent is a sequence that has ko'a and ko'e as members. With (2a), ko'a ce'o ko'e cu se cunma. With (2b), ko'a ce'o ko'e cu gunma. porsi1 is for the sequence, not for the ordered members of the sequence, so it isn't plural, just like gunma1 or linji1 are not plural. I understand "lo ci porsi" to be three sequences, not three things in a sequence, which would be "lo ci te porsi". If porsi1 is plural then porsi1 and porsi3 would refer to the same things. And if you use "ce'o" to create a sequence (definition (2b)), then it probably shouldn't be used in places for ordered plurals. plita2 - OK? >> sarni2 - ? >> > three corners imply that all of them are to be specified. > Yes, I understood that, I was just wondering at the weirdness of the place structures. I guess the idea was that since geometric gismu mostly have weird place structures, if we are to create a new one it should come with a weird place structure as well. Shouldn't kubli3 and kerfa2 be plural too? and kubli2 a number? The geometric gismu obviously need some revision. Another plural: morna2 mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11336a8ed2f29d04fbfb200d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
porsi1 - I disagree.

By ordered plural I mean {ce'o}, by &= quot;plural" I mean {jo'u}.

But what do you mean by "ce'o"? It has two com= peting definitions.

I would define jo'u and ce= 'o as follows:

(1) ko'a jo'u ko'e = :=3D zo'e noi ge ko'a .e ko'e me ke'a gi ro me ke'a cu = me ko'a gi'a me ko'e

(2a) ko'a ce'o ko'e :=3D ko'a jo'u = ko'e vu'o noi ko'a lidne ko'e

But = "ko'a ce'o ko'e" could also be defined as:

(2b) ko'a ce'o ko'e :=3D lo porsi be fi ko'a= jo'u ko'e be'o noi ko'a lidne ko'e ke'a
= =C2=A0
With definition (2a), "ko'a ce'o ko'e&quo= t; is plural, with its referents forming a sequence. But "ko'a ce&= #39;o ko'e" doesn't refer to the sequence, it refers to the me= mbers of the sequence.

With definition (2b), "ko'a ce'o ko'e&= quot; is singular, and its referent is a sequence that has ko'a and ko&= #39;e as members.

With (2a), ko'a ce'o ko&= #39;e cu se cunma. With (2b), ko'a ce'o ko'e cu gunma.

porsi1 is for the sequence, not for the ordered members= of the sequence, so it isn't plural, just like gunma1 or linji1 are no= t plural. I understand "lo ci porsi" to be three sequences, not t= hree things in a sequence, which would be "lo ci te porsi". If po= rsi1 is plural then porsi1 and porsi3 would refer to the same things.

And if you use "ce'o" to create a sequenc= e (definition (2b)), then it probably shouldn't be used in places for o= rdered plurals.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

plita2 - OK?
sarni2 - ?
three corners i= mply that all of them are to be specified.

Yes, I understood that, I was just wondering at the wei= rdness of the place structures. I guess the idea was that since geometric g= ismu mostly have weird place structures, if we are to create a new one it s= hould come with a weird place structure as well. Shouldn't kubli3 and k= erfa2 be plural too? and kubli2 a number? The geometric gismu obviously nee= d some revision.

Another plural: morna2

mu'= o mi'e xorxes

--
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