Received: from mail-ie0-f186.google.com ([209.85.223.186]:64564) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1X3meX-0002vG-R1 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 06:38:56 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f186.google.com with SMTP id at1sf930739iec.23 for ; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 06:38:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=YjTUNeA7mUZQK71Z5RaJdRUQv8FpWM98JtpCTdP2PGs=; b=MboucrtHyJiQJ9k1HCEPwpM6jXk/pCDbdlbTbIoCYdO9efcYb8l2q3jgS3QiiM7dSf zMwTqAOTCIRNdzGOWkN2caFSD3YbVYnYiWCnhXuQopndZB6811z50rM8oO8oyj1Ns1to n6/4aZLUZcTawexC/jKhIiB9NNBwzpM0kDAiMhcMRtv7YJZUTILYNJm2QpchmrAlXPi0 QHY+CvNPFPyXCxd7qcpcQtBeRoMvhUz8NfyEbhW73FLk61nOPlPKy+xO9oE0QDqk5xPm G29cpi70Ve40HeP4m21DcB3F2Rp/OAPq+6EIZ7CLyKnkb7DB2J6z8hMXghDKxQOrb46q ztHA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=YjTUNeA7mUZQK71Z5RaJdRUQv8FpWM98JtpCTdP2PGs=; b=PSiF5wC2o8pPoTVIOfAa/Gqq190maqypi7MrZFtHq9r9YhG0J95WWQIhgioxkpE5T7 FuWsIq2yfFLqPlCNU+uNz+Snw2CdlB+5o6qdnyNDQuAgPNEYqT0TaF+4nSJMxvCBpRyg Dgxv0EhvvCxcm+S9tPo6Y8Axm/C5u81W0WozTh35Ktm+eUzlqj2P8HUke7cYhT0qOO/J NDe1Pmzv5R2CGYoKHULnIPeKT5Dk543fkGEPzK14IG1+NcAeNYuV74lxCYJVhfnIzWy9 Tep+nUdgHJZdC0rN3ImLXrfm8MI9v0sk+3sNnZy6aMMTWdsF/3ng8P2w5Imh38IbPz3x LGzQ== X-Received: by 10.50.171.229 with SMTP id ax5mr169038igc.4.1404653923365; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 06:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.79.135 with SMTP id j7ls1874238igx.20.gmail; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 06:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.78.138 with SMTP id b10mr579964igx.17.1404653922902; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 06:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 06:38:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Browne To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3854b8c6-4e18-4b76-9039-d1d5cdbcbb16@googlegroups.com> <1402323602.64243.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1402336485.50854.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <273fe5a5-b80e-4df3-87b0-3c916ed920a9@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] What are the official goals of lojban? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: dersaidin@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2788_10724969.1404653921917" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_2788_10724969.1404653921917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote: > > Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of your goals. > I stated what I think/hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be: The goal of lojban is to be a usable language which enhances thought. - maximize facility for logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning - minimize limitations on thought I did mention ambiguity as something to minimize: - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity I may have missed other instrumental goals. > Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic > unambiguity as well? > I did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think both are to be minimized. > Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then to > what extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animals > is more or less homogeneous. > I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - something to be maximized: - consistency and regularity is logical To what extent? I'm not sure. I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall utility function we're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might include stuff like backwards compatibility). > > Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future machine translation > applications? > Does this eventually mean it is supposed to be an auxiliary language in > that you write in Lojban, and your text is automatically translated into > high quality texts in other languages? > My interpretation of some of the sources in my first post (namely the "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that these nice features would be probable consequences of the language design choices. I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but having them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those features. The original question is still open. Officially, what are the goals of lojban? Thanks, Andrew / DerSaidin -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2788_10724969.1404653921917 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+= 10, la gleki wrote:
Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of your goals.

I stated what I think/hope/expect the ter= minal goal of lojban to be:

The goal of lojban is to be a usable= language which enhances thought.

- maximize facility fo= r logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning

- = minimize limitations on thought


=

I did mention ambiguity as something to minimize:

=

- ambiguity is a limi= tation on clarity


I may ha= ve missed other instrumental goals. 
 
Does this mean = lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic unambiguity as well?

I did not differentiate between s= yntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think both are to be minimized.
 
Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then = to what extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animal= s is more or less homogeneous.

= I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - something to be ma= ximized:
- consistency and regularity is logical
<= div>
To what extent? I'm not sure.
I guess as much = as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall utility function w= e're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might include stuff like bac= kwards compatibility).
 

Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future mac= hine translation applications?
Does this eventually mean it is su= pposed to be an auxiliary language in that you write in Lojban, and your te= xt is automatically translated into high quality texts in other languages?<= /div>

My interpretation of some of th= e sources in my first post (namely the "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that t= hese nice features would be probable consequences of the language design ch= oices.
I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features= , but having them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve th= ose features.



The or= iginal question is still open. Officially, what are the goals of lojban?


Thanks,

Andrew  /  DerSaidin

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