Received: from mail-la0-f57.google.com ([209.85.215.57]:44912) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1X3ui2-0005Xi-Sq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 15:14:59 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f57.google.com with SMTP id ty20sf414766lab.12 for ; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 15:14:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0XfLcZzmldbQ0hbF1fvqs7pzmCtgiK9vCJ43v+3HNOY=; b=L7IFyVWucFlpb8dpNWZ+6vquXQuJNacNUE31Ou3uTVeZNNHN7W1dHJldEPE2WDJfG5 jSAeuC/fjwvrSSLVhUJdZoFQuAudFsleDUbEefPMusxvnEQLSgn1i7kc64n0pvVcu0b+ SqyZc6RcLLAC5sbB5AOFFgfVJqib1YhXynQP1vKzdtPM8yUrqEtl9HGX6r+iqCkuT4U/ dEs7F2EEy6hYXR9Uo+VMY/qsIjjj8ZyeuHw2buRLRypnp044z1Ef8iaP3kIVs02WYfTX LWcvnJ45VLcN7ofR5JZ1Zkup2qoWl8yXYow8+Ca5CdaJwjEduwAVWVn2UPbpDOtMKkCS 6OJg== X-Received: by 10.152.37.202 with SMTP id a10mr271720lak.2.1404674680369; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.203.230 with SMTP id kt6ls258836lac.81.gmail; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.42.129 with SMTP id o1mr9422lal.7.1404674679889; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22e.google.com (mail-wg0-x22e.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gc5si1728433wic.1.2014.07.06.12.24.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e; Received: by mail-wg0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id l18so80638wgh.29 for ; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.221.133 with SMTP id qe5mr32385183wic.79.1404674679758; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.71.197 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jul 2014 12:24:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1404674042.88239.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <3854b8c6-4e18-4b76-9039-d1d5cdbcbb16@googlegroups.com> <1402323602.64243.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1402336485.50854.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <273fe5a5-b80e-4df3-87b0-3c916ed920a9@googlegroups.com> <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> <1404674042.88239.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 23:24:39 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] What are the official goals of lojban? From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134dac44fe83a04fd8b4f0e X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1134dac44fe83a04fd8b4f0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Semantic regularization is achievable to a certain degree like with gismu for animals, parallelism of dunda/cpacu/lebna. Such words as {kanpe} and {vedli} showed regularisation coming to Lojban relatively to human perception (since such feelings/perceptions as vedli and kanpe are real but we had no words for them). I think this is the only semantic regularisation that is to be achieved. Others are useless although i won't object to any of them. 2014-07-06 23:14 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com>: > Well, UN officially, as before, if you do not insist on monoparsing, any > other goals you have for Lojban (etc) can be achieved more simply. > Semantic unambiguity is a mirage, a goal that will always recede as you > approach it and perfect precision requires infinite expression (and still > misses). The suggestions about improved thinking and creativity ascribe to > a language powers it does not have (not to mention the probability that the > two constantly interfere with one another). A usable language is easy to > obtain (there are thousands available), any language can facilitate clear > thinking and creativity, just just have to use it rightly (imitating formal > logic is not generally such a use). Ambiguity is a limitatyion on clarity > (sometimes) but often a stimulus to creativity. And so on. Monoparsing is > an achievable and testable goal; all the others are either impossible or > merely subjective. Or far to easy to achieve to be interesting. > > > On Sunday, July 6, 2014 8:38 AM, Andrew Browne > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote: > > Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of your goals. > > > I stated what I think/hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be: > > The goal of lojban is to be a usable language which enhances thought. > - maximize facility for logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning > - minimize limitations on thought > > > I did mention ambiguity as something to minimize: > > - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity > > > I may have missed other instrumental goals. > > > Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic > unambiguity as well? > > > I did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think > both are to be minimized. > > > Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then to > what extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animals > is more or less homogeneous. > > > I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - something to be > maximized: > > - consistency and regularity is logical > > > To what extent? I'm not sure. > I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall > utility function we're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might > include stuff like backwards compatibility). > > > > Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future machine translation > applications? > Does this eventually mean it is supposed to be an auxiliary language in > that you write in Lojban, and your text is automatically translated into > high quality texts in other languages? > > > My interpretation of some of the sources in my first post (namely the > "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that these nice features would be probable > consequences of the language design choices. > I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but having > them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those features. > > > > The original question is still open. Officially, what are the goals of > lojban? > > > Thanks, > > Andrew / DerSaidin > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1134dac44fe83a04fd8b4f0e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Semantic regularization is achievable to a certain degree = like with gismu for animals, parallelism of dunda/cpacu/lebna.

Such words as {kanpe} and {vedli} showed regularisation coming to Lo= jban relatively to human perception (since such feelings/perceptions as ved= li and kanpe are real but we had no words for them).

I think this is the only semantic regularisation that is to be achieved= .

Others are useless although i won't object to any of them.
=


2014-07-06 23:14 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <l= ojban@googlegroups.com>:
=
Well, UN officially, as before, if you do not insist on monopars= ing, any other goals you have for Lojban (etc) can be achieved more simply.= =C2=A0Semantic unambiguity is a mirage, a goal that will always recede as = you approach it and perfect precision requires infinite expression (and sti= ll misses). =C2=A0The suggestions about improved thinking and creativity as= cribe to a language powers it does not have (not to mention the probability= that the two constantly interfere with one another). =C2=A0A usable langua= ge is easy to obtain (there are thousands available), any language can faci= litate clear thinking and creativity, just just have to use it rightly (imi= tating formal logic is not generally such a use). =C2=A0Ambiguity is a limi= tatyion on clarity (sometimes) but often a stimulus to creativity. =C2=A0And so on. =C2=A0Monoparsing is an achievable and testab= le goal; all the others are either impossible or merely subjective. Or far = to easy to achieve to be interesting.
<= div>

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 8:38 AM, A= ndrew Browne <d= ersaidin@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote:=
Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of y= our goals.

I stated what I think/hope= /expect the terminal goal of lojban to be:

The goal of lojban is to be= a usable language which enhances thought.
- maximize facility f= or logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning
- minimize limitation= s on thought

I did mention ambiguity as somet= hing to minimize:

- ambiguity is a limitation on clarity

I may have missed other instrumental= goals.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic una= mbiguity as well?

I did not differentiate between synt= actic and semantic ambiguity, I think both are to be minimized.
= =C2=A0
Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization = and if yes then to what extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of = words for animals is more or less homogeneous.

I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - som= ething to be maximized:
- consistency and regularity is logical

To what extent? I'm not sure.
I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall = utility function we're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might = include stuff like backwards compatibility).
=C2=A0

Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future mac= hine translation applications?
Does this eventually mean it is su= pposed to be an auxiliary language in that you write in Lojban, and your te= xt is automatically translated into high quality texts in other languages?<= /div>

My interpretation of some of the sou= rces in my first post (namely the "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is t= hat these nice features would be probable consequences of the language desi= gn choices.
I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but ha= ving them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those feat= ures.



The original q= uestion is still open.=C2=A0Officially, what are the goals of lojban?


Thanks,

Andrew = =C2=A0/ =C2=A0DerSaidin
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
<= /div>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1134dac44fe83a04fd8b4f0e--