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[216.39.63.18]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id zs4si7356213pbc.1.2014.07.06.12.14.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.18; Received: from [216.39.60.168] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2014 19:14:02 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.160] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2014 19:14:02 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2014 19:14:02 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 530889.96988.bm@omp1026.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 94317 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Jul 2014 19:14:02 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: qR7uvdkVM1kJbGDNuYiW32SzK.gdHPBzqoVlVe1BUzfHd5E 3LRfJ1vsN9Q2whB5FPCTIq7foQM8mn0t69bsDRnVODHNDK.eudq9wxYo3K6U Vyj7G.gv9SWDqJQUa.TMCgvcATTvRkq1_.Ua9h9v4.fKD0Shhk7s5ybyCshk k3rRxQWDJPpXoaGNqc4YZJ0udAE7RteG3.gA0NuAtHEj2KG__gZkg0GFxKv2 LyACVcvcBU7umBDpwnRWYTpWx2t.ASEk38YAnUMrCtv._RK7xIX7YkRO9.UU aAJR5Lavu9FrKkh08b0No4qf4VVuq1OQODblxPpKMVxhJOJV.mXqnI6ukfPw ef42oAaz1p6CPoLmvNljmVAacJo8N8dX5ZfE5ALQ3IQSMtvuxi9bEwIYG1eH YHojJtmd..3lnFzEV8Ka11oIQ.pw6J2dLbCuHlpXAIHp4j0VLA8NFNcfVTKC sGQXK9Coe45KZHM2Z739C_cd7VIc_B.FscRD6e0RQagiBEjTcreSGq5EsUnn 66t_ZOlZYSl.WTuoJh1_Uv_T9I1uGfOGvywARllua0COGIv2YGcdUgr_sg54 vifK5mJuEPuxLqJip_LyCTOfiS2cvC16tWqjLw.3RHRANfgvJAHsygY1B8JH tmLl1A7MI12I0WNkaVzhkaWlMF7WhEjHRdKRaWGBUhOW9xHo9H7UY2SzHoWC yHJqeNypgETOEJwfZqJxEUQxI1.BKc7xym3DZ6c6h Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 12:14:02 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2VsbCwgVU4gb2ZmaWNpYWxseSwgYXMgYmVmb3JlLCBpZiB5b3UgZG8gbm90IGluc2lzdCBvbiBtb25vcGFyc2luZywgYW55IG90aGVyIGdvYWxzIHlvdSBoYXZlIGZvciBMb2piYW4gKGV0YykgY2FuIGJlIGFjaGlldmVkIG1vcmUgc2ltcGx5LiDCoFNlbWFudGljIHVuYW1iaWd1aXR5IGlzIGEgbWlyYWdlLCBhIGdvYWwgdGhhdCB3aWxsIGFsd2F5cyByZWNlZGUgYXMgeW91IGFwcHJvYWNoIGl0IGFuZCBwZXJmZWN0IHByZWNpc2lvbiByZXF1aXJlcyBpbmZpbml0ZSBleHByZXNzaW9uIChhbmQgc3RpbGwgbWkBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.191.1 References: <3854b8c6-4e18-4b76-9039-d1d5cdbcbb16@googlegroups.com> <1402323602.64243.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1402336485.50854.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <273fe5a5-b80e-4df3-87b0-3c916ed920a9@googlegroups.com> <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1404674042.88239.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 12:14:02 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] What are the official goals of lojban? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-859393202-1404674042=:88239" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---204173969-859393202-1404674042=:88239 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, UN officially, as before, if you do not insist on monoparsing, any ot= her goals you have for Lojban (etc) can be achieved more simply. =A0Semanti= c unambiguity is a mirage, a goal that will always recede as you approach i= t and perfect precision requires infinite expression (and still misses). = =A0The suggestions about improved thinking and creativity ascribe to a lang= uage powers it does not have (not to mention the probability that the two c= onstantly interfere with one another). =A0A usable language is easy to obta= in (there are thousands available), any language can facilitate clear think= ing and creativity, just just have to use it rightly (imitating formal logi= c is not generally such a use). =A0Ambiguity is a limitatyion on clarity (s= ometimes) but often a stimulus to creativity. =A0And so on. =A0Monoparsing = is an achievable and testable goal; all the others are either impossible or= merely subjective. Or far to easy to achieve to be interesting. On Sunday, July 6, 2014 8:38 AM, Andrew Browne wrote: =20 On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote: Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of your goals. I stated what I think/hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be: The goal of lojban is to be a usable language which enhances thought. >- maximize facility for logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasonin= g >- minimize limitations on thought I did mention ambiguity as something to minimize: - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity I may have missed other instrumental goals.=A0 =A0 Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic unambigu= ity as well? I did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think b= oth are to be minimized. =A0 Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then to wha= t extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animals is m= ore or less homogeneous. I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - something to be ma= ximized: - consistency and regularity is logical To what extent? I'm not sure. I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall ut= ility function we're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might includ= e stuff like backwards compatibility). =A0 > >Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future machine translation ap= plications? >Does this eventually mean it is supposed to be an auxiliary language in th= at you write in Lojban, and your text is automatically translated into high= quality texts in other languages? My interpretation of some of the sources in my first post (namely the "Logl= an 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that these nice features would be probable consequ= ences of the language design choices. I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but having them= considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those features. The original question is still open.=A0Officially, what are the goals of lo= jban? Thanks, Andrew =A0/ =A0DerSaidin --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-859393202-1404674042=:88239 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, UN officially, as before, if you do not insi= st on monoparsing, any other goals you have for Lojban (etc) can be achieve= d more simply.  Semantic unambiguity is a mirage, a goal that will alw= ays recede as you approach it and perfect precision requires infinite expre= ssion (and still misses).  The suggestions about improved thinking and= creativity ascribe to a language powers it does not have (not to mention t= he probability that the two constantly interfere with one another).  A= usable language is easy to obtain (there are thousands available), any lan= guage can facilitate clear thinking and creativity, just just have to use i= t rightly (imitating formal logic is not generally such a use).  Ambig= uity is a limitatyion on clarity (sometimes) but often a stimulus to creativity.  And so on.  Monoparsing is an achievable and testab= le goal; all the others are either impossible or merely subjective. Or far = to easy to achieve to be interesting.


<= div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial= , 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
On Sunday, July 6, 2014 8:38 AM, Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com>= ; wrote:



On Wednesday, June 25, 20= 14 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote:
Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list = of your goals.

I stated what I think/= hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be:

The goal of lojban is to be a = usable language which enhances thought.
- maximize facility fo= r logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning
<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:tran= sparent;">- minimize limitation= s on thought

I did mention ambiguity as so= mething to minimize:

= - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity
=
I may have missed other instrumental goals. 
=  
Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for = semantic unambiguity as well?

I= did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think bo= th are to be minimized.
 
Does lojban have a goal of = a semantic regularization and if yes then to what extent? I can see that e.= g. the place structure of words for animals is more or less homogeneous.

I would say yes, as this is an as= pect of being logical - something to be maximized:
- consistency and regularit= y is logical

To what extent? I= 'm not sure.
I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it= reduces the overall utility function we're trying to maximize (which, at t= his point, might include stuff like backwards compatibility).
&nb= sp;

Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future mac= hine translation applications?
Does this eventually mean it is su= pposed to be an auxiliary language in that you write in Lojban, and your te= xt is automatically translated into high quality texts in other languages?<= /div>

My interpretation of some of th= e sources in my first post (namely the "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that t= hese nice features would be probable consequences of the language design ch= oices.
I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features= , but having them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve th= ose features.



The or= iginal question is still open. Officially, what are the goals of lojban?


Thanks,

Andrew  /  DerSaidin
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