Received: from mail-pd0-f184.google.com ([209.85.192.184]:52211) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1X3y46-0006kM-KM for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:59 -0700 Received: by mail-pd0-f184.google.com with SMTP id g10sf1089577pdj.21 for ; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2aUn4nekNUOaIyCod8P+Ush0jH18vwDWpKuqxkOz+MU=; b=h5GOvoz1XEu2NgCIjGwN73oFWiUFe6tkfkox6gcXEeEY/it7UQQ9Vk3d1ZDVQtp3QL /H189+5oujx/aWwOstUi33A4zuTVioKiNW9pJEiLFjRNcimPkfYyT9lgRPaB5V3eBbg4 ZBGEAVzgNo5+eF32CrrIWm9vK/Dc2P7/AAb4nyPnyWX5eQwNSKzAUN0PScxjqcc8aXeN 3LB4twxsHpOxv35dmGzZju5B77mP5yqJp9+/oHbxeAtEPA6+mYZ2EBZDePZLZ6os1kR1 4Lh4vZcDdZh+HuD4lHrE55DJ4vXlZzmOHNnURq/2lKN6IwdefiS+HmJkPpB8RAVp1NT/ 0mMQ== X-Received: by 10.140.37.150 with SMTP id r22mr496928qgr.3.1404697792384; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.82.168 with SMTP id h37ls1594182qgd.62.gmail; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.86.178 with SMTP id w38mr4315940yhe.13.1404697792034; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22c.google.com (mail-qg0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m2si4601987qcr.2.2014.07.06.18.49.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c; Received: by mail-qg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id j107so3165425qga.3 for ; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.60.137 with SMTP id p9mr44127013qah.70.1404697791917; Sun, 06 Jul 2014 18:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.81.4 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jul 2014 18:49:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> References: <3854b8c6-4e18-4b76-9039-d1d5cdbcbb16@googlegroups.com> <1402323602.64243.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1402336485.50854.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <273fe5a5-b80e-4df3-87b0-3c916ed920a9@googlegroups.com> <9742a10f-72c6-4c70-a402-b04d9434e7ca@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 21:49:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] What are the official goals of lojban? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133d894e774ae04fd90b039 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1133d894e774ae04fd90b039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Why does a language have to have "goals"? My goal with lojban (unlike Loglan) is to not have people ask what its goals are. Clearly it has failed this goal. But seriously, my question above stands. You seem to think it is crucial that a language has goals, (mostly because you said "I think it is an important question deserving of one. Officially, what are the goals of lojban?") But I don't think a language need have any goals (other than perhaps the goal that it is able to be the means of communication between at least two entities, human or otherwise). --gejyspa On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Browne wrote: > > On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote: >> >> Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of your goals. >> > > I stated what I think/hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be: > > The goal of lojban is to be a usable language which enhances thought. > > - maximize facility for logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning > > - minimize limitations on thought > > > I did mention ambiguity as something to minimize: > > > - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity > > > I may have missed other instrumental goals. > > >> Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but for semantic >> unambiguity as well? >> > > I did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity, I think > both are to be minimized. > > >> Does lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then to >> what extent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animals >> is more or less homogeneous. >> > > I would say yes, as this is an aspect of being logical - something to be > maximized: > > - consistency and regularity is logical > > > To what extent? I'm not sure. > I guess as much as possible, until the increasing it reduces the overall > utility function we're trying to maximize (which, at this point, might > include stuff like backwards compatibility). > > >> >> Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future machine translation >> applications? >> Does this eventually mean it is supposed to be an auxiliary language in >> that you write in Lojban, and your text is automatically translated into >> high quality texts in other languages? >> > > My interpretation of some of the sources in my first post (namely the > "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7) is that these nice features would be probable > consequences of the language design choices. > I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but having > them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those features. > > > > The original question is still open. Officially, what are the goals of > lojban? > > > Thanks, > > Andrew / DerSaidin > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1133d894e774ae04fd90b039 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Why does a language have to have "goals"?= =C2=A0

<flippancy>
=C2=A0=C2=A0My goal = with lojban (unlike Loglan) is to not have people ask what its goals are. = =C2=A0Clearly it has failed this goal.
</flippancy>

=C2= =A0 But seriously, my question above stands. =C2=A0You seem to think it is = crucial that a language has goals, (mostly because =C2=A0you said "I= =C2=A0think i= t is an important question deserving of one. Officially, what are the goals of= lojban?") But I don't think a language need have any goals (othe= r than perhaps the goal that it is able to be the means of communication be= tween at least two entities, human or otherwise).

--gejyspa


On Sun, Jul 6, = 2014 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Browne <dersaidin@gmail.com> wrote= :


On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:19:06 PM UTC+10, la gleki wrote:
Hm, i can't see syntactic unambiguity in the list of y= our goals.

I stated what I thin= k/hope/expect the terminal goal of lojban to be:

The goal of lojban is to= be a usable language which enhances thought.

- maximize facility for= logical thought: clear, sound, consistent reasoning

- minimize limitations = on thought


=

= I did mention ambiguity as somethi= ng to minimize:

=

=

= - ambiguity is a limitation on clarity


I may have missed other instru= mental goals.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Does this mean lojban aims not only for syntactic but= for semantic unambiguity as well?

<= /div>
I did not differentiate between syntactic and semantic ambiguity,= I think both are to be minimized.
=C2=A0
Doe= s lojban have a goal of a semantic regularization and if yes then to what e= xtent? I can see that e.g. the place structure of words for animals is more= or less homogeneous.

I would say yes, as this is an= aspect of being logical - something to be maximized:
=
- consistency and = regularity is logical

To what extent? I'm not sure.
I guess as much as possible, un= til the increasing it reduces the overall utility function we're trying= to maximize (which, at this point, might include stuff like backwards comp= atibility).
=C2=A0

Does Lojban aims for being a metalanguage in future mac= hine translation applications?
Does this eventually mean it is su= pposed to be an auxiliary language in that you write in Lojban, and your te= xt is automatically translated into high quality texts in other languages?<= /div>

My interpretation of some of t= he sources in my first post (namely the "Loglan 1"; 1.5, 1.6, 1.7= ) is that these nice features would be probable consequences of the languag= e design choices.
I don't think these need to be goals to emerge as features, but ha= ving them considered as low priority secondary goals may improve those feat= ures.



The original q= uestion is still open.=C2=A0Officially, what are the goa= ls of lojban?


Thanks,

Andrew = =C2=A0/ =C2=A0DerSaidin

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1133d894e774ae04fd90b039--