Received: from mail-ig0-f187.google.com ([209.85.213.187]:51200) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1X9RV8-0001hH-1O for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:31 -0700 Received: by mail-ig0-f187.google.com with SMTP id c1sf488913igq.4 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ayUQqNcwPJHYZT/qrvpRllbX4EC2LkhS2J7s4H2zdO8=; b=l9hdk3H14EnVr5HvzZzswqtihcEwElhvoi5XomSxKhKjqvICsMAbucYfx6IuwdHxHU GBLkG/B5e6AI/N9I/5g0kb/+I48pfQacMxguULT6N4OHi4ID0bRdnzoHiREsMW6QQlBZ R+tFWznQkhfIOISGdpvQUm7QeG10cTegTzVcWsgHghNxEz4J+vQZBdQPIEecIdvHPwQv p9oNelipKfxrGAdeSxVYPGAih6FWJsY9ZFEFAK5ufWp9Wptoi0ADOjjgaXDINGQ1wfYl gqtkn/i8+9vTV0gE6eJhDa4sBooKa62vmjzpkH7EseOzzf1udWxkd5iu+eTV26+5NVBx GZ6g== X-Received: by 10.182.88.232 with SMTP id bj8mr1694obb.30.1406002583599; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.120.137 with SMTP id lc9ls224974obb.63.gmail; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.32.1 with SMTP id e1mr2714837obi.11.1406002582972; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x234.google.com (mail-yh0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:4002:c01::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z50si1198594yhb.3.2014.07.21.21.16.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of vastencn@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4002:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4002:c01::234; Received: by mail-yh0-f52.google.com with SMTP id t59so4768854yho.39 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.108.147 with SMTP id q19mr46449662yhg.27.1406002582853; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.224.6 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:16:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3c98f147-b4cb-4561-a838-f80c02745b12@googlegroups.com> <20140721051658.GL13780@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:16:22 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Computer Friendly Handwriting From: Matthew DeBlock To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: vastencn@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of vastencn@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4002:c01::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=vastencn@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160b5a8811d1404fec07cf7 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --089e0160b5a8811d1404fec07cf7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Of course I will. Ill try to remember to send you a copy of the code when I get around to it :) On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 3:41 AM, .arpis. wrote: > (Suppressing snobbery about language choice) > > That sounds really cool! I hope you'll post on your facebook page when > it's done. > > > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Matthew DeBlock > wrote: > >> as per "underestimating" OCR requirements. >> as I pointed out this would be more like QR codes, it only has to "trace" >> the line and it has all the data. OCR needs an extra step where it compares >> likeness to known glyphs. a whole leve lis gone. >> >> I plan to build some readng software as soon as I have time. I am >> planning on first doing it in PHP so it is easy for others to test and >> modify, but to do a reall "speed test" I will need to do it in C >> >> As per Palm OS graffiti >> That only works if it is draw into the system in real time. not if it is >> scanned in after the fact. it relies on knowing the stroke direction, >> something that is lost in scan of written text. >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Robin Lee Powell < >> rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: >> >>> Rather the opposite; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS) >>> worked perfectly on CPUs that now probably are used to drive >>> *watches*; a modern smartphone is many many times more powerful. >>> >>> My question is why the hell you would invent something as painfully >>> terrible on the human as Cscript when Graffiti is know to be >>> entirely workable in real time on what is in the modern day a >>> trivial processor. >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 03:17:17PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: >>> > Not to be unreasonably pessimistic, but I will believe that the design >>> goal >>> > of computer legibility to be satisfied when I see a program that >>> > demonstrates it. Both Cscript and Dscript are cool, and I'll definitely >>> > play around with them on my next con-script kick, but I worry that >>> you're >>> > underestimating the difficulties of OCR on real text written at a >>> > reasonable speed. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:25 AM, vasten wrote: >>> > >>> > > A logban user contacted me and says he is using this for lojban, >>> figured >>> > > you guys might like too :) >>> > > [ http://www.facebook.com/Dscripting - see comments in the top >>> post on >>> > > this page for details ] >>> > > >>> > > He says tendinitis in the right hand forces him to use his left hand >>> and >>> > > he find Cscript easier. >>> > > Seems he has mapped it to lojabn quite easily. >>> > > >>> > > CSCRIPT - Computer / Human Bi-Friendly Writing System >>> > > >>> > > http://dscript.ca/cscript.pdf >>> > > >>> > > Cscript is designed to be both easy to read and write by humans as >>> well as >>> > > be digitally and programmatically read and written by computers. >>> > > >>> > > There is of course a trade off between the two. Cscript could be >>> thought >>> > > of as "lying somewhere between QR codes and standard hand writing" >>> > > >>> > > For Humans it easy to produce with standard lined paper and allows >>> some >>> > > intuitive "cursive" elements. >>> > > >>> > > For Computers it removes entirely the need for glyph recognition and >>> > > shape/vector analysis. It could read straight off the raster level >>> as a >>> > > string of absolute values. It eliminates the need for an entire >>> level of >>> > > OCR shape comparison, and drastically reduces ambiguity, requires >>> FAR less >>> > > processing power and increased accuracy. >>> > > >>> > > It is not meant to be "perfect" for either, but instead offer a more >>> > > balanced alternative. >>> > > >>> > > **technically it would not be considered "OCR" as it does not >>> actually >>> > > require the "character recognition" level of the software at all. >>> > > >>> > > ***keep in mind the "value range zones" can even be flexible based on >>> > > context (ie. assume top=1, bottom=0.. [0->0.33]=0, [0.34->0.66]=1, >>> > > [0.67->1]=2... the values [0 , 0.1, 0.1] = "0-1-1" because there >>> would be >>> > > no corner point in 000 >>> > > >>> > > Another new project of mine that might be fun too.... >>> > > >>> > > CHEMICAL CALLIGRAPHY >>> > > >>> > > http://dscript.org/chem.pdf >>> > > >>> > > This is a mnemonic device and art form. >>> > > >>> > > It is designed to allow simpler representation of bio-chem molecules >>> with >>> > > "less noise". >>> > > >>> > > It drops some information, which is assumed is "obvious" to someone >>> with >>> > > basic chemistry knowledge. The missing information can usually be >>> "filled >>> > > in" with basic chemistry understanding. >>> > > >>> > > It allows various forms of any one molecule (the larger the molecule >>> the >>> > > more possible forms), which adds greatly to the users ability to make >>> > > artistic and aesthetic choices without altering the molecular and >>> > > structural information. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Still have not rebuilt my lab, current apt too small :( So still just >>> > > hacking with "pen and paper" ;) >>> > > >>> > > Hopefully soon will be able to get back to my mad science :) >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > > "lojban" group. >>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an >>> > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni >>> li'u >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0160b5a8811d1404fec07cf7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of course I will.

Ill try to remember to= send you a copy of the code when I get around to it :)


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at= 3:41 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wr= ote:
(Suppressing snobbery about= language choice)

That sounds really cool! I hope you'll post on= your facebook page when it's done.



On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Matthew DeBlock <vastencn@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
as per "underestimating" OCR= requirements.
as I pointed out this would be more like QR codes, = it only has to "trace" the line and it has all the data. OCR need= s an extra step where it compares likeness to known glyphs. a whole leve li= s gone.

I plan to build some readng software as soon as I have time. I am= planning on first doing it in PHP so it is easy for others to test and mod= ify, but to do a reall "speed test" I will need to do it in C

As per Palm OS graffiti
That only works if it is draw in= to the system in real time. not if it is scanned in after the fact. it reli= es on knowing the stroke direction, something that is lost in scan of writt= en text.


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Robin Lee Powell <= rlpowell@d= igitalkingdom.org> wrote:
Rather the opposite; <= a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)" target=3D"_blank= ">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)
worked perfectly on CPUs that now probably are used to drive
*watches*; a modern smartphone is many many times more powerful.

My question is why the hell you would invent something as painfully
terrible on the human as Cscript when Graffiti is know to be
entirely workable in real time on what is in the modern day a
trivial processor.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 03:17:17PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> Not to be unreasonably pessimistic, but I will believe that the design= goal
> of computer legibility to be satisfied when I see a program that
> demonstrates it. Both Cscript and Dscript are cool, and I'll defin= itely
> play around with them on my next con-script kick, but I worry that you= 're
> underestimating the difficulties of OCR on real text written at a
> reasonable speed.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:25 AM, vasten <vastencn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A logban user contacted me and says he is using this for lojban, = figured
> > you guys might like too :)
> > [ =C2=A0http://www.facebook.com/Dscripting =C2=A0- see comments in the = top post on
> > this page for details ]
> >
> > He says tendinitis in the right hand forces him to use his left h= and and
> > he find Cscript easier.
> > Seems he has mapped it to lojabn quite easily.
> >
> > CSCRIPT - Computer / Human Bi-Friendly Writing System
> >
> > http:= //dscript.ca/cscript.pdf
> >
> > Cscript is designed to be both easy to read and write by humans a= s well as
> > be digitally and programmatically read and written by computers.<= br> > >
> > There is of course a trade off between the two. Cscript could be = thought
> > of as "lying somewhere between QR codes and standard hand wr= iting"
> >
> > For Humans it easy to produce with standard lined paper and allow= s some
> > intuitive "cursive" elements.
> >
> > For Computers it removes entirely the need for glyph recognition = and
> > shape/vector analysis. It could read straight off the raster leve= l as a
> > string of absolute values. It eliminates the need for an entire l= evel of
> > OCR shape comparison, and drastically reduces ambiguity, requires= FAR less
> > processing power and increased accuracy.
> >
> > It is not meant to be "perfect" for either, but instead= offer a more
> > balanced alternative.
> >
> > **technically it would not be considered "OCR" as it do= es not actually
> > require the "character recognition" level of the softwa= re at all.
> >
> > ***keep in mind the "value range zones" can even be fle= xible based on
> > context (ie. assume top=3D1, bottom=3D0.. [0->0.33]=3D0, [0.34= ->0.66]=3D1,
> > [0.67->1]=3D2... the values [0 , 0.1, 0.1] =3D "0-1-1&quo= t; because there would be
> > no corner point in 000
> >
> > Another new project of mine that might be fun too....
> >
> > CHEMICAL CALLIGRAPHY
> >
> > http://= dscript.org/chem.pdf
> >
> > This is a mnemonic device and art form.
> >
> > It is designed to allow simpler representation of bio-chem molecu= les with
> > "less noise".
> >
> > It drops some information, which is assumed is "obvious"= ; to someone with
> > basic chemistry knowledge. The missing information can usually be= "filled
> > in" with basic chemistry understanding.
> >
> > It allows various forms of any one molecule (the larger the molec= ule the
> > more possible forms), which adds greatly to the users ability to = make
> > artistic and aesthetic choices without altering the molecular and=
> > structural information.
> >
> >
> >
> > Still have not rebuilt my lab, current apt too small :( So still = just
> > hacking with "pen and paper" ;)
> >
> > Hopefully soon will be able to get back to my mad science =C2=A0:= )
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
http://i= ntelligence.org/ : =C2=A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u= .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e = lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mam= ta be do cu sofybakni li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.go= ogle.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--089e0160b5a8811d1404fec07cf7--