Received: from mail-pa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.220.61]:40279) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1X9Zsr-0004A0-LN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:38 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f61.google.com with SMTP id ey11sf2460543pad.26 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pb27N7e4e62ldWnaQ4o/jk7ZFz5JDXe6406dCPbuBYw=; b=fhDAftQr0O7rh1q/ouPeTRSa5rAYfVg7ZfjIvonMPNCbMna1omMTBpRE64ZIYUcLWb ABeQAQJM+BDPocyjKUpPQg+UOjAKZxvDV1+uCUPd5KKTimM+OH4jJDkOoAHWoCjo8XMr PqqNJSa8dClRG3RKtByVtO9VykEGaD5dVw/tsbvpvhEjlgLv9ePvhjje4hWEZvhzKylk QIMSkQFzRr+RLys7bUl4yHzw7bp2D3tQQsxJxo3w8M4+h+YoL6kRhCAIq72kYt5ytMhH 7dw/QaKUqDulpFMakCc9W7W5lc8hwKjpfamKimOSrKZ8mpbyU16wKYzuDCOS60YoXt1U wmqQ== X-Received: by 10.50.222.41 with SMTP id qj9mr391903igc.1.1406034806962; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.50.171 with SMTP id d11ls2329223igo.40.canary; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.246.199 with SMTP id xy7mr8674943pac.42.1406034806453; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22c.google.com (mail-vc0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xn6si18667vdc.2.2014.07.22.06.13.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c; Received: by mail-vc0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id im17so14461106vcb.31 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.220.202.69 with SMTP id fd5mr27557582vcb.43.1406034806194; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.148.211 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:13:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3c98f147-b4cb-4561-a838-f80c02745b12@googlegroups.com> <20140721051658.GL13780@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <489FBD68-47E8-4D4D-9C4A-B97B09FC2F32@aol.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:13:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Computer Friendly Handwriting To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1be702a4c1a04fec7fd78 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c1be702a4c1a04fec7fd78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 How does the computer know the "absolute height value" that is in force at a particular glyph? For example, assume two different runs of the program, each trying to read the only character on a page; in one case, the character is "c" and in the other case, the character is "b"; the paper is unlined. I recognize that this is a problem for people too, but that doesn't make the computer version go away. The same problem arises for "bed" vs "cig" (short for cigarette) if it's the only word on lined paper. What about someone like me, who has a bad habit of not writing at a consistent height? How will the computer keep from, partway through some of my handwriting, treating all my strokes as short? What I'm trying to get at is that I think there's a trickier calibration problem (though by no means unsolvable) than you seem to be acknowledging. On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Matthew DeBlock wrote: > well using lined paper it should be pretty easy (middle vs. touching top > or bottom) > > also, assume top =100 bottom=0 > the difference in hight can be more than half > > eg. > 0,1,1 would be 0-50-50 > 0,2,2 would be 0-100-100 > > but 011 could also be written 0-10-10 > this would make the difference even greater adn easier to see (it woul > dnot be confused with 000 because 000 would not have any corners) > > if you mean for the computer reading.. > then you are perhaps confusing this with glyph based OCR > the computer would never looks ta the "shape as a whole".. that is needed > for glyph recognition(like latin alphabet) but that whole level of the > software is not needed here > > basically dont think of them like you would normal glyphs, you would never > "compare shapes", just read "absolute hight values" > > > On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:07 PM, 'Seth Turner' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> I'm not sure how you are supposed to tell the difference between letters >> of the same shape at different heights, like a and n, d and q. I'm >> otherwise quite a fan of all of your work >> >> On Jul 21, 2014, at 9:16 PM, Matthew DeBlock wrote: >> >> Of course I will. >> >> Ill try to remember to send you a copy of the code when I get around to >> it :) >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 3:41 AM, .arpis. >> wrote: >> >>> (Suppressing snobbery about language choice) >>> >>> That sounds really cool! I hope you'll post on your facebook page when >>> it's done. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Matthew DeBlock >>> wrote: >>> >>>> as per "underestimating" OCR requirements. >>>> as I pointed out this would be more like QR codes, it only has to >>>> "trace" the line and it has all the data. OCR needs an extra step where it >>>> compares likeness to known glyphs. a whole leve lis gone. >>>> >>>> I plan to build some readng software as soon as I have time. I am >>>> planning on first doing it in PHP so it is easy for others to test and >>>> modify, but to do a reall "speed test" I will need to do it in C >>>> >>>> As per Palm OS graffiti >>>> That only works if it is draw into the system in real time. not if it >>>> is scanned in after the fact. it relies on knowing the stroke direction, >>>> something that is lost in scan of written text. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Robin Lee Powell < >>>> rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Rather the opposite; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS) >>>>> worked perfectly on CPUs that now probably are used to drive >>>>> *watches*; a modern smartphone is many many times more powerful. >>>>> >>>>> My question is why the hell you would invent something as painfully >>>>> terrible on the human as Cscript when Graffiti is know to be >>>>> entirely workable in real time on what is in the modern day a >>>>> trivial processor. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 03:17:17PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: >>>>> > Not to be unreasonably pessimistic, but I will believe that the >>>>> design goal >>>>> > of computer legibility to be satisfied when I see a program that >>>>> > demonstrates it. Both Cscript and Dscript are cool, and I'll >>>>> definitely >>>>> > play around with them on my next con-script kick, but I worry that >>>>> you're >>>>> > underestimating the difficulties of OCR on real text written at a >>>>> > reasonable speed. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:25 AM, vasten wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > A logban user contacted me and says he is using this for lojban, >>>>> figured >>>>> > > you guys might like too :) >>>>> > > [ http://www.facebook.com/Dscripting - see comments in the top >>>>> post on >>>>> > > this page for details ] >>>>> > > >>>>> > > He says tendinitis in the right hand forces him to use his left >>>>> hand and >>>>> > > he find Cscript easier. >>>>> > > Seems he has mapped it to lojabn quite easily. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > CSCRIPT - Computer / Human Bi-Friendly Writing System >>>>> > > >>>>> > > http://dscript.ca/cscript.pdf >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Cscript is designed to be both easy to read and write by humans as >>>>> well as >>>>> > > be digitally and programmatically read and written by computers. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > There is of course a trade off between the two. Cscript could be >>>>> thought >>>>> > > of as "lying somewhere between QR codes and standard hand writing" >>>>> > > >>>>> > > For Humans it easy to produce with standard lined paper and allows >>>>> some >>>>> > > intuitive "cursive" elements. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > For Computers it removes entirely the need for glyph recognition >>>>> and >>>>> > > shape/vector analysis. It could read straight off the raster level >>>>> as a >>>>> > > string of absolute values. It eliminates the need for an entire >>>>> level of >>>>> > > OCR shape comparison, and drastically reduces ambiguity, requires >>>>> FAR less >>>>> > > processing power and increased accuracy. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > It is not meant to be "perfect" for either, but instead offer a >>>>> more >>>>> > > balanced alternative. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > **technically it would not be considered "OCR" as it does not >>>>> actually >>>>> > > require the "character recognition" level of the software at all. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > ***keep in mind the "value range zones" can even be flexible based >>>>> on >>>>> > > context (ie. assume top=1, bottom=0.. [0->0.33]=0, [0.34->0.66]=1, >>>>> > > [0.67->1]=2... the values [0 , 0.1, 0.1] = "0-1-1" because there >>>>> would be >>>>> > > no corner point in 000 >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Another new project of mine that might be fun too.... >>>>> > > >>>>> > > CHEMICAL CALLIGRAPHY >>>>> > > >>>>> > > http://dscript.org/chem.pdf >>>>> > > >>>>> > > This is a mnemonic device and art form. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > It is designed to allow simpler representation of bio-chem >>>>> molecules with >>>>> > > "less noise". >>>>> > > >>>>> > > It drops some information, which is assumed is "obvious" to >>>>> someone with >>>>> > > basic chemistry knowledge. The missing information can usually be >>>>> "filled >>>>> > > in" with basic chemistry understanding. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > It allows various forms of any one molecule (the larger the >>>>> molecule the >>>>> > > more possible forms), which adds greatly to the users ability to >>>>> make >>>>> > > artistic and aesthetic choices without altering the molecular and >>>>> > > structural information. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Still have not rebuilt my lab, current apt too small :( So still >>>>> just >>>>> > > hacking with "pen and paper" ;) >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Hopefully soon will be able to get back to my mad science :) >>>>> > > >>>>> > > -- >>>>> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> > > "lojban" group. >>>>> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an >>>>> > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic >>>>> future. >>>>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >>>>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >>>>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu >>>>> sofybakni li'u >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/tP3LTTlV3x0/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c1be702a4c1a04fec7fd78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How does the computer know the "absolute he= ight value" that is in force at a particular glyph? For example, assum= e two different runs of the program, each trying to read the only character= on a page; in one case, the character is "c" and in the other ca= se, the character is "b"; the paper is unlined. I recognize that = this is a problem for people too, but that doesn't make the computer ve= rsion go away. The same problem arises for "bed" vs "cig&quo= t; (short for cigarette) if it's the only word on lined paper.

What about someone like me, who has a bad habit of not writing at= a consistent height? How will the computer keep from, partway through some= of my handwriting, treating all my strokes as short?

What I&#= 39;m trying to get at is that I think there's a trickier calibration pr= oblem (though by no means unsolvable) than you seem to be acknowledging.


On Tue,= Jul 22, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Matthew DeBlock <vastencn@gmail.com> wrote:
well using lined paper it should be pretty easy (mid= dle vs. touching top or bottom)

also, assume top =3D100 bottom=3D0
the difference in hig= ht can be more than half

eg.
0,1,1 would be 0-50-50
0,2,2 would be 0-100-100
but 011 could also be written 0-10-10
this would make = the difference even greater adn easier to see (it woul dnot be confused wit= h 000 because 000 would not have any corners)

if you mean for the computer reading..
then you are perh= aps confusing this with glyph based OCR
the computer would never l= ooks ta the "shape as a whole".. that is needed for glyph recogni= tion(like latin alphabet) but that whole level of the software is not neede= d here

basically dont think of them like you would normal glyphs, you wo= uld never "compare shapes", just read "absolute hight values= "


On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:07 PM, 'Seth Turner' via lojban <l= ojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I'm not sure how you are supposed to tell the di= fference between letters of the same shape at different heights, like a and= n, d and q. I'm otherwise quite a fan of all of your work

On Jul 21, 2014, at 9:16 PM, Matthew DeBlock <vastencn@gmail.com> wrot= e:

Of course I will.

Ill try to remember to send you a copy of th= e code when I get around to it :)

<= br>
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 3:41 AM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
(Suppressing snobbery about= language choice)

That sounds really cool! I hope you'll post on= your facebook page when it's done.



On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Matthew DeBlock <vastencn@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
as per "underestimating" OCR= requirements.
as I pointed out this would be more like QR codes, = it only has to "trace" the line and it has all the data. OCR need= s an extra step where it compares likeness to known glyphs. a whole leve li= s gone.

I plan to build some readng software as soon as I have time. I am= planning on first doing it in PHP so it is easy for others to test and mod= ify, but to do a reall "speed test" I will need to do it in C

As per Palm OS graffiti
That only works if it is draw in= to the system in real time. not if it is scanned in after the fact. it reli= es on knowing the stroke direction, something that is lost in scan of writt= en text.


On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Robin Lee Powell <= rlpowell@d= igitalkingdom.org> wrote:
Rather the opposite; <= a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)" target=3D"_blank= ">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)
worked perfectly on CPUs that now probably are used to drive
*watches*; a modern smartphone is many many times more powerful.

My question is why the hell you would invent something as painfully
terrible on the human as Cscript when Graffiti is know to be
entirely workable in real time on what is in the modern day a
trivial processor.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 03:17:17PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> Not to be unreasonably pessimistic, but I will believe that the design= goal
> of computer legibility to be satisfied when I see a program that
> demonstrates it. Both Cscript and Dscript are cool, and I'll defin= itely
> play around with them on my next con-script kick, but I worry that you= 're
> underestimating the difficulties of OCR on real text written at a
> reasonable speed.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 8:25 AM, vasten <vastencn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A logban user contacted me and says he is using this for lojban, = figured
> > you guys might like too :)
> > [ =C2=A0http://www.facebook.com/Dscripting =C2=A0- see comments in the = top post on
> > this page for details ]
> >
> > He says tendinitis in the right hand forces him to use his left h= and and
> > he find Cscript easier.
> > Seems he has mapped it to lojabn quite easily.
> >
> > CSCRIPT - Computer / Human Bi-Friendly Writing System
> >
> > http:= //dscript.ca/cscript.pdf
> >
> > Cscript is designed to be both easy to read and write by humans a= s well as
> > be digitally and programmatically read and written by computers.<= br> > >
> > There is of course a trade off between the two. Cscript could be = thought
> > of as "lying somewhere between QR codes and standard hand wr= iting"
> >
> > For Humans it easy to produce with standard lined paper and allow= s some
> > intuitive "cursive" elements.
> >
> > For Computers it removes entirely the need for glyph recognition = and
> > shape/vector analysis. It could read straight off the raster leve= l as a
> > string of absolute values. It eliminates the need for an entire l= evel of
> > OCR shape comparison, and drastically reduces ambiguity, requires= FAR less
> > processing power and increased accuracy.
> >
> > It is not meant to be "perfect" for either, but instead= offer a more
> > balanced alternative.
> >
> > **technically it would not be considered "OCR" as it do= es not actually
> > require the "character recognition" level of the softwa= re at all.
> >
> > ***keep in mind the "value range zones" can even be fle= xible based on
> > context (ie. assume top=3D1, bottom=3D0.. [0->0.33]=3D0, [0.34= ->0.66]=3D1,
> > [0.67->1]=3D2... the values [0 , 0.1, 0.1] =3D "0-1-1&quo= t; because there would be
> > no corner point in 000
> >
> > Another new project of mine that might be fun too....
> >
> > CHEMICAL CALLIGRAPHY
> >
> > http://= dscript.org/chem.pdf
> >
> > This is a mnemonic device and art form.
> >
> > It is designed to allow simpler representation of bio-chem molecu= les with
> > "less noise".
> >
> > It drops some information, which is assumed is "obvious"= ; to someone with
> > basic chemistry knowledge. The missing information can usually be= "filled
> > in" with basic chemistry understanding.
> >
> > It allows various forms of any one molecule (the larger the molec= ule the
> > more possible forms), which adds greatly to the users ability to = make
> > artistic and aesthetic choices without altering the molecular and=
> > structural information.
> >
> >
> >
> > Still have not rebuilt my lab, current apt too small :( So still = just
> > hacking with "pen and paper" ;)
> >
> > Hopefully soon will be able to get back to my mad science =C2=A0:= )
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
http://i= ntelligence.org/ : =C2=A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u= .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e = lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mam= ta be do cu sofybakni li'u

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To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
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mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

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