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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 22:35:56 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQjsdhkaQHz2hFhOup9PWhLXMVAYoNS04m=w7w-kBSPew@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL Corrections
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  No "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu" does not mean "that-distant-thing
which dragged the cat, is-a-rat" The first place of lacpu (the puller) is
filled by the "lo mlatu"  (think of the sentence "le mlatu pu lacpu" --
"the cat pulled (something)".  )  We are saying "that over yonder, which
the cat pulled, is a rat."  How do we know this?  Because we assume that
the ke'a goes right after the lacpu, and is the thing pulled, since the
first place is filled. (conceivably, it might be the te lacpu, the thing
which the cat is pulling something by, but that's unlikely to be a rat).

                  --gejyspa


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:36 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 6:39:51 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:
>>
>>
>> You can discuss it here, sure. You can also check if it's something that
>> has already been detected in:
>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata
>>
>
> Thanks!
>
> In section 1, Example 1.8, the description says "ke'a can be omitted if it
> is clear to the listener that it belongs to in some place other than x1."
> Then the example is "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu". I see two problems
> with this. 1) It is very un-lojban like to suggest the listener can just
> reinterpret the sentence based on subjective "clarity". While I understand
> that there is always some undertone of subjective/contextual interpretation
> going on, this case is rather clearly not one of them. Which leads me to
> the second problem 2) the example literally says "that-distant-thing which
> dragged the cat, is-a-rat". Not that the cat dragged the rat, which it says
> it is equivalent to in example 1.5. Also, it's easy enough to fix by adding
> a `se` before `lacpu`. There isn't any need for ambiguity, and I don't
> think such even needs to be suggested.
>
> HTH .trans.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 No &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">tu poi le=
 mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu&quot;=C2=A0</span>does not mean=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">&quot;that=
-distant-thing which dragged the cat, is-a-rat&quot; The first place of lac=
pu (the puller) is filled by the &quot;lo mlatu&quot; =C2=A0(think of the s=
entence &quot;le mlatu pu lacpu&quot; -- &quot;the cat pulled (something)&q=
uot;. =C2=A0) =C2=A0We are saying &quot;that over yonder, which the cat pul=
led, is a rat.&quot; =C2=A0How do we know this? =C2=A0Because we assume tha=
t the ke&#39;a goes right after the lacpu, and is the thing pulled, since t=
he first place is filled. (conceivably, it might be the te lacpu, the thing=
 which the cat is pulling something by, but that&#39;s unlikely to be a rat=
).</span><div>
<span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"=
><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:13.333333969116211px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:36 PM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">On Wednesda=
y, August 6, 2014 6:39:51 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>You can discuss it here, sure. You can also check=
 if it&#39;s something that has already been detected in:</div><div><a href=
=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+<=
u></u>Errata</a></div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>In section 1, Example 1.8, the description says &quot;ke&#39;a can be om=
itted if it is clear to the listener that it belongs to in some place other=
 than x1.&quot; Then the example is &quot;tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu=
&quot;. I see two problems with this. 1) It is very un-lojban like to sugge=
st the listener can just reinterpret the sentence based on subjective &quot=
;clarity&quot;. While I understand that there is always some undertone of s=
ubjective/contextual interpretation going on, this case is rather clearly n=
ot one of them. Which leads me to the second problem 2) the example literal=
ly says &quot;that-distant-thing which dragged the cat, is-a-rat&quot;. Not=
 that the cat dragged the rat, which it says it is equivalent to in example=
 1.5. Also, it&#39;s easy enough to fix by adding a `se` before `lacpu`. Th=
ere isn&#39;t any need for ambiguity, and I don&#39;t think such even needs=
 to be suggested.</div>
<div><br></div><div>HTH .trans.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOE=
nZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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