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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 09:50:29 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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You are right that one can imagine a dialect with not more than two slots.
The advantage is that there are fewer slots to remember.
The drawback is that there are more words to remember.

You can create such a dialect within Lojban and it won't break Lojban. You
are even free to add words for it to jbvovlaste.lojban.org.
Whether they become popular is another question (you would probably have to
write texts in Lojban so that others read them and absorb your new words).

The same applies to three-slot predicates.


2014-08-07 2:17 GMT+04:00 <transfire@gmail.com>:

> On Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:48:17 PM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote:
>
>>
>> Usage and definitions are drifting further and further apart,
>>
>>
> It is interesting to read this. Yesterday, I was considering the nature of
> natural languages and wondering why they tend to be binary predicate
> systems (e.g. nominative-accusative). So I was thinking about the word
> `klama` and it's five slots. It became very clear to me that that last two
> sumti would be subject to natural drift because it would be easy to forget
> the order they are supposed to be in. So people would start to use them
> incorrectly. Yet others would still understood what was meant by context,
> so it wouldn't really matter. And I concluded that eventually it would most
> likely (d)evolve into a 4-slot gismu where the last sumti meant a more
> general "means of transportation".
>
> From there I played around with what a binary predicate Lojban might look
> like. It is quite possible actually, but it is a bit stilted in some
> respects. Consider if `klama` meant only that
> `x1-comes/goes-via-the-route-x2`. How then would one specify `to` and
> `from`? That would require an additional predicate that means
> `origin-x1-connects-to-destination-x2`, then you'd have to plug that
> construct into the `x2` slot of `klama`. Its a bit cumbersome and makes one
> wonder if there might be more streamlined ways of doing relative clauses.
> It really makes one wonder how natural languages are so good at it. (The
> answer of course is prepositions.) In any case, I determined that binary
> predication isn't *quite* Lojban's cup of tea.
>
> However, after some further exploration, I found that Lojban worked quite
> well using a ternary system --essentially adding the dative that some
> natural languages do support. (e.g. English "He gave her it.) Note that
> very very few natural languages support anything more the three objects
> --all other object's must be handled via subordinate clauses like
> prepositional phrases. For Lojban at least, three seems to be the magic
> number at which point the whole of the gimste starts to click.
>
> In your quest to reform the gimste, you might want to take this into
> consideration. I am not necessarily saying the 4th and 5th slots should be
> completely removed, but I do think it would at least be a worthwhile
> general principle to try to keep each gismu within that limit of three (vs
> the opposite inclination to fill all the slots up).
>
>
> .trans.
>
>  --
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">You are right that one can imagine a dialect with not more=
 than two slots.<div>The advantage is that there are fewer slots to remembe=
r.</div><div>The drawback is that there are more words to remember.</div><d=
iv>
<br></div><div>You can create such a dialect within Lojban and it won&#39;t=
 break Lojban. You are even free to add words for it to <a href=3D"http://j=
bvovlaste.lojban.org">jbvovlaste.lojban.org</a>.</div><div>Whether they bec=
ome popular is another question (you would probably have to write texts in =
Lojban so that others read them and absorb your new words).</div>
<div><br></div><div>The same applies to three-slot predicates.</div><div><b=
r></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>2014-08-07 2:17 GMT+04:00  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfi=
re@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D""><div>On Thu=
rsday, May 22, 2014 5:48:17 PM UTC-4, selpa&#39;i wrote:<br></div></div><di=
v><div class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>Usage and definitions are drift=
ing further and further apart,=C2=A0<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div></d=
iv><div>
It is interesting to read this. Yesterday, I was considering the nature of =
natural languages and wondering why they tend to be binary predicate system=
s (e.g. nominative-accusative). So I was thinking about the word `klama` an=
d it&#39;s five slots. It became very clear to me that that last two sumti =
would be subject to natural drift because it would be easy to forget the or=
der they are supposed to be in. So people would start to use them incorrect=
ly. Yet others would still understood what was meant by context, so it woul=
dn&#39;t really matter. And I concluded that eventually it would most likel=
y (d)evolve into a 4-slot gismu where the last sumti meant a more general &=
quot;means of transportation&quot;.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>From there I played around with what a binary pre=
dicate Lojban might look like. It is quite possible actually, but it is a b=
it stilted in some respects. Consider if `klama` meant only that `x1-comes/=
goes-via-the-route-x2`. How then would one specify `to` and `from`? That wo=
uld require an additional predicate that means `origin-x1-connects-to-desti=
nation-x2`, then you&#39;d have to plug that construct into the `x2` slot o=
f `klama`. Its a bit cumbersome and makes one wonder if there might be more=
 streamlined ways of doing relative clauses. It really makes one wonder how=
 natural languages are so good at it. (The answer of course is prepositions=
.) In any case, I determined that binary predication isn&#39;t *quite* Lojb=
an&#39;s cup of tea.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, after some further exploration, I found that L=
ojban worked quite well using a ternary system --essentially adding the dat=
ive that some natural languages do support. (e.g. English &quot;He gave her=
 it.) Note that very very few natural languages support anything more the t=
hree objects --all other object&#39;s must be handled via subordinate claus=
es like prepositional phrases. For Lojban at least, three seems to be the m=
agic number at which point the whole of the gimste starts to click.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In your quest to reform the gimste, you might want to t=
ake this into consideration. I am not necessarily saying the 4th and 5th sl=
ots should be completely removed, but I do think it would at least be a wor=
thwhile general principle to try to keep each gismu within that limit of th=
ree (vs the opposite inclination to fill all the slots up).</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>.trans.</div><div><br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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