Received: from mail-vc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:35485) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XFMyM-0007rn-Op for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 05:39:11 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id ij19sf830263vcb.4 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 05:39:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Hvt2rI/QaQUHp4v7OGB+hI0Tu3HTbONp00RqQktJvWo=; b=SKGh0vHikWzJwUIIgU4aTkHR6vNlbvUx0jt3Lv+usXAjt3SUPewhb4DajCmRwnbksb FctanRA7ruXMW/Bf4LJ5Wi22erMHS7zqvjKWImb1xIgn6/1Xc6ze9DePbweDDZENueBu V4rNCZSDk9BWfSzhsvxZeF3gG+mF5bJAUJ/P4RRPuoYQkYHEMlSEbjoC8g1bggKrNA6C 2JvMJp7eS+RfwyJj6QBgwNJkPJvtXHKYftsw94wPB4C1qG2uE/JAoKrHY0aPzeMKjf3Z EIJWX8lPgjEHRZEo8uRv0EEDV63o2eJjVtj7BljqMOZB6b1GXZBl0+svfL+D+670LKzz c12w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Hvt2rI/QaQUHp4v7OGB+hI0Tu3HTbONp00RqQktJvWo=; b=z3aEX5aQpKcMmlqwZNWAyh1vZy/adiBcTRli7jcLanAEmfHfPDFzbnGFm12hNBxdVR sZlg+7XdfyEV8jMfKG0+dnkZtrytD8m2OAqc9ql3Y0C2V/RKHSU9lt23hBcy/EjKezg4 pvgwF0PjFl8nRy5NuPQEH+5Y3zHtCYhf2klt4hd3grNsAkOcLyJanGrQHAznx86aWvrj 6ZUCjA9/XCHfG4V68C/WmRMi7h+87ZPI5Ii4KtVoC6DNAd1hjFbC1Dt1vMNN5DbmQuGM /HbiW4fTryOJxC0zGFl9WymeXEcWxAEUi46l8yF01Fmo7iaxgjgJ37tobSlId0JE6o6K CDAA== X-Received: by 10.182.4.1 with SMTP id g1mr163102obg.3.1407415143870; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 05:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.134.162 with SMTP id pl2ls69277obb.90.gmail; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.250.164 with SMTP id zd4mr12463obc.25.1407415142882; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: TR NS To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1a05ebdb-5a99-4382-b6a3-4205d1d16ae6@googlegroups.com> <857775fe-c38f-4e84-b3b9-17034a98a989@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL Corrections MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: transfire@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_104_742710636.1407415142252" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_104_742710636.1407415142252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 10:35:59 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote: > > No "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu" does not mean "that-distant-thing > which dragged the cat, is-a-rat" The first place of lacpu (the puller) is > filled by the "lo mlatu" (think of the sentence "le mlatu pu lacpu" -- > "the cat pulled (something)". ) We are saying "that over yonder, which > the cat pulled, is a rat." How do we know this? Because we assume that > the ke'a goes right after the lacpu, and is the thing pulled, since the > first place is filled. (conceivably, it might be the te lacpu, the thing > which the cat is pulling something by, but that's unlikely to be a rat). > According the preceding explanation of poi the first sumti of the subordinate clause if filled be reference if ke'a is not given. That would be tu. > --gejyspa > > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 7:36 PM, TR NS > > wrote: > >> On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 6:39:51 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: >>> >>> >>> You can discuss it here, sure. You can also check if it's something that >>> has already been detected in: >>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata >>> >> >> Thanks! >> >> In section 1, Example 1.8, the description says "ke'a can be omitted if >> it is clear to the listener that it belongs to in some place other than >> x1." Then the example is "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu". I see two >> problems with this. 1) It is very un-lojban like to suggest the listener >> can just reinterpret the sentence based on subjective "clarity". While I >> understand that there is always some undertone of subjective/contextual >> interpretation going on, this case is rather clearly not one of them. Which >> leads me to the second problem 2) the example literally says >> "that-distant-thing which dragged the cat, is-a-rat". Not that the cat >> dragged the rat, which it says it is equivalent to in example 1.5. Also, >> it's easy enough to fix by adding a `se` before `lacpu`. There isn't any >> need for ambiguity, and I don't think such even needs to be suggested. >> >> HTH .trans. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_104_742710636.1407415142252 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 10:35:59 PM UTC-4, ge= jyspa wrote:
&= nbsp; No "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratc= u" does not mean "that-distant-thing which dragged the ca= t, is-a-rat" The first place of lacpu (the puller) is filled by the "lo mla= tu"  (think of the sentence "le mlatu pu lacpu" -- "the cat pulled (so= mething)".  )  We are saying "that over yonder, which the cat pul= led, is a rat."  How do we know this?  Because we assume that the= ke'a goes right after the lacpu, and is the thing pulled, since the first = place is filled. (conceivably, it might be the te lacpu, the thing which th= e cat is pulling something by, but that's unlikely to be a rat).

According the preceding explanation of p= oi the first sumti of the subordinate clause if filled be reference if ke'a= is not given. That would be tu.


&n= bsp;
              &nbs= p;   --gejyspa



On Wed, Aug 6, 2= 014 at 7:36 PM, TR NS <tran...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, August 6= , 2014 6:39:51 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:

You can discuss it here, sure. You can also check= if it's something that has already been detected in:

Thanks!

In section 1, Example 1.8, the description says "ke'a can be omitted if = it is clear to the listener that it belongs to in some place other than x1.= " Then the example is "tu poi le mlatu pu lacpu cu ratcu". I see two proble= ms with this. 1) It is very un-lojban like to suggest the listener can just= reinterpret the sentence based on subjective "clarity". While I understand= that there is always some undertone of subjective/contextual interpretatio= n going on, this case is rather clearly not one of them. Which leads me to = the second problem 2) the example literally says "that-distant-thing which = dragged the cat, is-a-rat". Not that the cat dragged the rat, which it says= it is equivalent to in example 1.5. Also, it's easy enough to fix by addin= g a `se` before `lacpu`. There isn't any need for ambiguity, and I don't th= ink such even needs to be suggested.

HTH .trans.

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