Received: from mail-qa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.216.62]:43746) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XFcH4-00063j-8B for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:30 -0700 Received: by mail-qa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id i13sf1057342qae.27 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eU1+lXEbIXICWyJuivmgjTVwbJwJd8e+AiDQErd0Z1c=; b=wxc8Ia5RvX64WiBctV9zN+qu0vrIUZdbADUM2r1QVBhJEclnyJvPVf4FyFODM9pqmu SdpRXsMKeYwn+75aPfzPTn6W5YovftAeDBXNHC7YnIAKvfmiJCmVqSOasBSeoP/8JWMi +kotwIWkNgMmYPMGfRDERQuHiU3N5OmFIfvHx0UOGneMxwXySdA7DiXxxvfZA6WN5Bbg LXQ9JTksnDxGX9urxUKdqUyK44U968Twq2y9xNj9yakoXTzZwtaaO0pKWwJJ+TPJcTdU h5ZxaDJZaU+K4P0yEgftcWSopVcU22UVYNI3Omkq9ONlzA0kD/acpDYuAk3QMQjmsOux lI4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eU1+lXEbIXICWyJuivmgjTVwbJwJd8e+AiDQErd0Z1c=; b=cS6oaMNMCFt5pMjQ4QXU0WMg8WuLrMnRduub/l9BVpVcpCyrzDSTVKdTLxeL9oeKs4 Zwqz+ZpT+/yT9blf/eJjTOAkVJW2sYrS1RSCRetPmN8teHH9SPdSwTgpfG00er1nckGn VrbBCpJ6aCZSDzwQOOHIeSerD3K846ZmPMIuDTUScltnKQGtIHBDV/sk4nWyN25cCC36 DzzImc7S7xrLNhk2tyzVrf2JJL66Omdip720/ZSd46mspr9kP6rcIq6Z8QXwW5yhWyF8 snnz8+iHluwTSDSFjSujFQUyGmD66sj7TtH5VPR55f+0eetJE3IjJ+wh8T7o9CRXgD7c ghcg== X-Received: by 10.140.105.200 with SMTP id c66mr241636qgf.4.1407473963597; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.109.117 with SMTP id k108ls364675qgf.3.gmail; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.83.171 with SMTP id q31mr1461007yhe.13.1407473963264; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rj1si83980igc.0.2014.08.07.21.59.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: none (google.com: ross@rossogilvie.id.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=209.85.214.182; Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id wm4so3626788obc.41 for ; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnW7TOXK5ZHFCokkUAc4M9jUx/Irlb/Y+loc6yegsIBRgeVkZ5naErtaHeMpmVUxEub7iSM X-Received: by 10.182.128.34 with SMTP id nl2mr8551973obb.44.1407473962409; Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.151.6 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 21:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [129.78.95.84] In-Reply-To: References: <543519c7-ee91-4ef3-90ed-8198ecf22b0d@googlegroups.com> From: Ross Ogilvie Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 14:58:52 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all To: lojban X-Original-Sender: ross@rossogilvie.id.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: ross@rossogilvie.id.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) smtp.mail=ross@rossogilvie.id.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff254628f746f0500171188 X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed --e89a8ff254628f746f0500171188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 That's a pretty cool idea. It's a slightly more verbose in the case of the common terminators (ku, kei, boi), but very reasonable for the lesser used ones. One downside is that it would be a (semi-) magic word (in the lojban sense http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Magic_Words) which tend to create problems in the grammar. But in this case I think you'd just need to change KEhE-pre <- pre-clause KEhE spaces? to KEhE-pre <- pre-clause (KEhE | XAU KE) spaces? and so on. Also, fyi, {xo} is already a word. Experimental cmavo take the forms xVV, xV'V, CVV'V, CV'VV, etc ( http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/%22experimental%20cmavo%22). -- Ross On 7 August 2014 23:00, TR NS wrote: > > > On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 10:13:17 PM UTC-4, Ross Ogilvie wrote: >> >> "We can't close any open clauses until we've closed that most recent >> one". This only sort of true. If there are a stack of open clauses, we can >> close several at a time by closing one in the middle of the stack, which >> forces all the ones more recent than that to close. If there was only one >> word for closing, you would have to repeat it a lot, and people aren't so >> good at numerically counting levels. >> > > Ah, that is a great point. Though it would probably not be so common b/c > people aren't so good at keeping track of too many levels in general, as > you point out (regardless of actually counting them). It would still be > nice to have a word for close-current-clause. (Maybe there already is? I > could not find a cmavo for it.) Also, thinking about the use case you > describe, it occurs to me that it would be much easier to remember a single > cmavo that worked in conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri > nixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is > some cmavo that means "close the cmavo I just mentioned". > > .trans. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8ff254628f746f0500171188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's a pretty cool idea. It's a slight= ly more verbose in the case of the common terminators (ku, kei, boi), but v= ery reasonable for the lesser used ones. One downside is that it would be a= (semi-) magic word (in the lojban sense=C2=A0 http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DM= agic_Words) which tend to create problems in the grammar. But in this c= ase I think you'd just need to change
KEhE-pre <- pre-clause KEhE spaces?

to
KEhE-pre <- pre-cla= use (KEhE | XAU KE)=C2=A0 spaces?

and so on.

Also, fyi, {xo} is already a word. Experimental cmavo take the forms xVV, = xV'V, CVV'V, CV'VV, etc (http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/%2= 2experimental%20cmavo%22).

-- Ross


On 7 August 2014 23:00, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


On = Wednesday, August 6, 2014 10:13:17 PM UTC-4, Ross Ogilvie wrote:
"We can't close any open clauses u= ntil we've closed that most recent one". This only sort of true. I= f there are a stack of open clauses, we can close several at a time by clos= ing one in the middle of the stack, which forces all the ones more recent t= han that to close. If there was only one word for closing, you would have t= o repeat it a lot, and people aren't so good at numerically counting le= vels.

Ah, that is = a great point. Though it would probably not be so common b/c people aren= 9;t so good at keeping track of too many levels in general, as you point ou= t (regardless of actually counting them). It would still be nice to have a = word for close-current-clause. (Maybe there already is? I could not find a = cmavo for it.) Also, thinking about the use case you describe, it occurs to= me that it would be much easier to remember a single cmavo that worked in = conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri nixli kexo ckule` inste= ad of `ke melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some cmavo that means = "close the cmavo I just mentioned".

.trans.

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