Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CA+gZtg+XY0nG0qDPJMZ6jm97y0k3A4Wiuoy8Pmvg_Tq+sgxnFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <543519c7-ee91-4ef3-90ed-8198ecf22b0d@googlegroups.com>
	<CAEUnqdVQCsfL=-5vcH0QLMeznETzPLr0e4vHvkYjEJdFXS8KdA@mail.gmail.com>
	<dfcfeeeb-6bd1-4b49-85aa-2df28c0adcbe@googlegroups.com>
	<CA+gZtg+XY0nG0qDPJMZ6jm97y0k3A4Wiuoy8Pmvg_Tq+sgxnFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 13:18:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtg+306exm2QZrQ9Uoo9kj2bv4+OtfJ0649DxL6yMODjoVA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e012950da4d4cd205002166e6
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--089e012950da4d4cd205002166e6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

A more human-related followup point: having terminators sound like their
openers is a problem in the presence of a mix of both nesting and noise.
For example, someone could get very confused by {ko'a noi broda ko'e noi
xau} if the {xau} gets muddled, because the second {noi} would otherwise be
starting a new clause entirely.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, thinking about the use case you describe, it occurs to me that it
>> would be much easier to remember a single cmavo that worked in conjunction
>> with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri nixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke
>> melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some cmavo that means "close the
>> cmavo I just mentioned".
>>
> "Selma'o cast" type cmavo, which is really what you are suggesting (it
> casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are generally difficult to formalize.
> This is a big part of why mekso is such a big mess. (Another is just YACC
> parser limitations, some of which have not been corrected in the
> semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).
>
> Going into some details, let's call your cmavo {xau} for discussion ({xo}
> is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le'u}
> looks like it should, but it really doesn't, because if {lo'u xau}
> terminates {lo'u} then you can't quote {lo'u xau} to explain what it means.
> (By contrast, you can quote {le'u} using {zo} and can quote {zo} using
> {lo'u}/{le'u}, which means there is syntax available for defining these in
> Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be intelligible but
> counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xau} appears to
> start a second quote and then, doesn't. And finally you would need to
> specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one word or
> two?). Everything else would probably work out.
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--089e012950da4d4cd205002166e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>A more human-related followup point: having terminato=
rs sound like their openers is a problem in the presence of a mix of both n=
esting and noise. For example, someone could get very confused by {ko&#39;a=
 noi broda ko&#39;e noi xau} if the {xau} gets muddled, because the second =
{noi} would otherwise be starting a new clause entirely.<br>
<br></div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Ian =
Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, =
TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Also, thinking about the use case you =
describe, it occurs to me that it would be much easier to remember a single=
 cmavo that worked in conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri n=
ixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke melbri nixli ke&#39;e ckule` where `xo` is =
some cmavo that means &quot;close the cmavo I just mentioned&quot;.</div>

</div></blockquote></div></div>&quot;Selma&#39;o cast&quot; type cmavo, whi=
ch is really what you are suggesting (it casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.)=
 are generally difficult to formalize. This is a big part of why mekso is s=
uch a big mess. (Another is just YACC parser limitations, some of which hav=
e not been corrected in the semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).<br>

<br>Going into some details, let&#39;s call your cmavo {xau} for discussion=
 ({xo} is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le&=
#39;u} looks like it should, but it really doesn&#39;t, because if {lo&#39;=
u xau} terminates {lo&#39;u} then you can&#39;t quote {lo&#39;u xau} to exp=
lain what it means. (By contrast, you can quote {le&#39;u} using {zo} and c=
an quote {zo} using {lo&#39;u}/{le&#39;u}, which means there is syntax avai=
lable for defining these in Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be int=
elligible but counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xa=
u} appears to start a second quote and then, doesn&#39;t. And finally you w=
ould need to specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one=
 word or two?). Everything else would probably work out.<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">mi=
9;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--089e012950da4d4cd205002166e6--