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Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2014 22:46:27 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Heh, I should note that those terminators that Ian suggested as
formalisable are almost never used by me.


2014-08-08 21:09 GMT+04:00 Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>:

> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, thinking about the use case you describe, it occurs to me that it
>> would be much easier to remember a single cmavo that worked in conjunction
>> with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri nixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke
>> melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some cmavo that means "close the
>> cmavo I just mentioned".
>>
> "Selma'o cast" type cmavo, which is really what you are suggesting (it
> casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are generally difficult to formalize.
> This is a big part of why mekso is such a big mess. (Another is just YACC
> parser limitations, some of which have not been corrected in the
> semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).
>
> Going into some details, let's call your cmavo {xau} for discussion ({xo}
> is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le'u}
> looks like it should, but it really doesn't, because if {lo'u xau}
> terminates {lo'u} then you can't quote {lo'u xau} to explain what it means.
> (By contrast, you can quote {le'u} using {zo} and can quote {zo} using
> {lo'u}/{le'u}, which means there is syntax available for defining these in
> Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be intelligible but
> counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xau} appears to
> start a second quote and then, doesn't. And finally you would need to
> specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one word or
> two?). Everything else would probably work out.
>
> mi'e la latro'a mu'o
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Heh, I should note that those terminators that Ian suggest=
ed as formalisable are almost never used by me.</div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-08-08 21:09 GMT+04:00 Ian John=
son <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, =
TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Also, thinking about the use case you =
describe, it occurs to me that it would be much easier to remember a single=
 cmavo that worked in conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri n=
ixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke melbri nixli ke&#39;e ckule` where `xo` is =
some cmavo that means &quot;close the cmavo I just mentioned&quot;.</div>

</div></blockquote></div></div>&quot;Selma&#39;o cast&quot; type cmavo, whi=
ch is really what you are suggesting (it casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.)=
 are generally difficult to formalize. This is a big part of why mekso is s=
uch a big mess. (Another is just YACC parser limitations, some of which hav=
e not been corrected in the semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).<br>

<br>Going into some details, let&#39;s call your cmavo {xau} for discussion=
 ({xo} is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le&=
#39;u} looks like it should, but it really doesn&#39;t, because if {lo&#39;=
u xau} terminates {lo&#39;u} then you can&#39;t quote {lo&#39;u xau} to exp=
lain what it means. (By contrast, you can quote {le&#39;u} using {zo} and c=
an quote {zo} using {lo&#39;u}/{le&#39;u}, which means there is syntax avai=
lable for defining these in Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be int=
elligible but counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xa=
u} appears to start a second quote and then, doesn&#39;t. And finally you w=
ould need to specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one=
 word or two?). Everything else would probably work out.<br>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">mi=
9;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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