Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all
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On Friday, August 8, 2014 1:09:50 PM UTC-4, Latro wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, TR NS <tran...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, thinking about the use case you describe, it occurs to me that it 
>> would be much easier to remember a single cmavo that worked in conjunction 
>> with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri nixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke 
>> melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some cmavo that means "close the 
>> cmavo I just mentioned".
>>
> "Selma'o cast" type cmavo, which is really what you are suggesting (it 
> casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are generally difficult to formalize. 
> This is a big part of why mekso is such a big mess. (Another is just YACC 
> parser limitations, some of which have not been corrected in the 
> semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).
>
> Going into some details, let's call your cmavo {xau} for discussion ({xo} 
> is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le'u} 
> looks like it should, but it really doesn't, because if {lo'u xau} 
> terminates {lo'u} then you can't quote {lo'u xau} to explain what it means. 
> (By contrast, you can quote {le'u} using {zo} and can quote {zo} using 
> {lo'u}/{le'u}, which means there is syntax available for defining these in 
> Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be intelligible but 
> counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xau} appears to 
> start a second quote and then, doesn't. And finally you would need to 
> specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one word or 
> two?). Everything else would probably work out.
>
>
Good point about quotations. Just leaving quotes out of this seems better, 
so no {lo'u}, and even if strictly possible, not {le'u} or {lu} either. 
Your point about {lu} made we wonder though. What about {xau lu} versus {lu 
xau}? Would having {xau} go first make things more intelligible, and can 
that work grammatically? Not sure about {si} but I think probably one, b/c 
it is probably better to repeat the whole thing if need be.


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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, August 8, 2014 1:09:50 PM UTC-4, Latro wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;borde=
r-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"QusfF3=
3P-RIJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"t=
his.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">tran...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Also, thinking about the use case you =
describe, it occurs to me that it would be much easier to remember a single=
 cmavo that worked in conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri n=
ixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some=
 cmavo that means "close the cmavo I just mentioned".</div>
</div></blockquote></div>"Selma'o cast" type cmavo, which is really what yo=
u are suggesting (it casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are generally diffi=
cult to formalize. This is a big part of why mekso is such a big mess. (Ano=
ther is just YACC parser limitations, some of which have not been corrected=
 in the semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).<br>
<br>Going into some details, let's call your cmavo {xau} for discussion ({x=
o} is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le'u} l=
ooks like it should, but it really doesn't, because if {lo'u xau} terminate=
s {lo'u} then you can't quote {lo'u xau} to explain what it means. (By cont=
rast, you can quote {le'u} using {zo} and can quote {zo} using {lo'u}/{le'u=
}, which means there is syntax available for defining these in Lojban.) The=
 interaction with {lu} would be intelligible but counterintuitive and possi=
bly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xau} appears to start a second quote and t=
hen, doesn't. And finally you would need to specify how exactly {xau} inter=
acts with {si} (is {ke xau} one word or two?). Everything else would probab=
ly work out.<br>
</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good point abou=
t quotations. Just leaving quotes out of this seems better, so no {lo'u}, a=
nd even if strictly possible, not {le'u} or {lu} either. Your point about {=
lu} made we wonder though. What about {xau lu} versus {lu xau}? Would havin=
g {xau} go first make things more intelligible, and can that work grammatic=
ally? Not sure about {si} but I think probably one, b/c it is probably bett=
er to repeat the whole thing if need be.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
></div>

<p></p>

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