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From: Ross Ogilvie <ross@rossogilvie.id.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:24:59 +1000
Message-ID: <CAEUnqdUHPna5g9MbTOt+NfSCx4L6ZRf36vYX+0-q6wpnY80-+w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all
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If you want to think seriously about this topic, may I suggest you read
http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Magic_Words_Alternatives and the other
magic words link I sent you. How to deal with these sorts of words is a
hard problem in Lojban, with lots of corner cases. These documents contain
some of the best thinking around.

To answer your specific question, having the magic word on the left does
make things easier. After binding it would be considered a single word of
the desired selma'o. Eg lo barda xaulo si bloti = lo barda bloti.

-- Ross


On 10 August 2014 03:07, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, August 8, 2014 1:09:50 PM UTC-4, Latro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:00 AM, TR NS <tran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Also, thinking about the use case you describe, it occurs to me that it
>>> would be much easier to remember a single cmavo that worked in conjunction
>>> with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri nixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke
>>> melbri nixli ke'e ckule` where `xo` is some cmavo that means "close the
>>> cmavo I just mentioned".
>>>
>> "Selma'o cast" type cmavo, which is really what you are suggesting (it
>> casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are generally difficult to formalize.
>> This is a big part of why mekso is such a big mess. (Another is just YACC
>> parser limitations, some of which have not been corrected in the
>> semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).
>>
>> Going into some details, let's call your cmavo {xau} for discussion ({xo}
>> is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le'u}
>> looks like it should, but it really doesn't, because if {lo'u xau}
>> terminates {lo'u} then you can't quote {lo'u xau} to explain what it means.
>> (By contrast, you can quote {le'u} using {zo} and can quote {zo} using
>> {lo'u}/{le'u}, which means there is syntax available for defining these in
>> Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be intelligible but
>> counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xau} appears to
>> start a second quote and then, doesn't. And finally you would need to
>> specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one word or
>> two?). Everything else would probably work out.
>>
>>
> Good point about quotations. Just leaving quotes out of this seems better,
> so no {lo'u}, and even if strictly possible, not {le'u} or {lu} either.
> Your point about {lu} made we wonder though. What about {xau lu} versus {lu
> xau}? Would having {xau} go first make things more intelligible, and can
> that work grammatically? Not sure about {si} but I think probably one, b/c
> it is probably better to repeat the whole thing if need be.
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>If you want to think seriously about this topic,=
 may I suggest you read <a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DM=
agic_Words_Alternatives">http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DMagic_Words=
_Alternatives</a> and the other magic words link I sent you. How to deal wi=
th these sorts of words is a hard problem in Lojban, with lots of corner ca=
ses. These documents contain some of the best thinking around.<br>

<br></div>To answer your specific question, having the magic word on the le=
ft does make things easier. After binding it would be considered a single w=
ord of the desired selma&#39;o. Eg lo barda xaulo si bloti =3D lo barda blo=
ti.<br>

<br></div>-- Ross<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On 10 August 2014 03:07, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, August 8, 2014 1=
:09:50 PM UTC-4, Latro wrote:<div class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 9:0=
0 AM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>tran...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Also, thinking about the use case you =
describe, it occurs to me that it would be much easier to remember a single=
 cmavo that worked in conjunction with the opening cmavo, e.g. `ke melbri n=
ixli kexo ckule` instead of `ke melbri nixli ke&#39;e ckule` where `xo` is =
some cmavo that means &quot;close the cmavo I just mentioned&quot;.</div>


</div></blockquote></div>&quot;Selma&#39;o cast&quot; type cmavo, which is =
really what you are suggesting (it casts LE to KU, NOI to KUhO, etc.) are g=
enerally difficult to formalize. This is a big part of why mekso is such a =
big mess. (Another is just YACC parser limitations, some of which have not =
been corrected in the semi-official PEG or even the zasni gerna).<br>


<br>Going into some details, let&#39;s call your cmavo {xau} for discussion=
 ({xo} is taken). {vau} and arguably {boi} do not match your paradigm. {le&=
#39;u} looks like it should, but it really doesn&#39;t, because if {lo&#39;=
u xau} terminates {lo&#39;u} then you can&#39;t quote {lo&#39;u xau} to exp=
lain what it means. (By contrast, you can quote {le&#39;u} using {zo} and c=
an quote {zo} using {lo&#39;u}/{le&#39;u}, which means there is syntax avai=
lable for defining these in Lojban.) The interaction with {lu} would be int=
elligible but counterintuitive and possibly not formalizable: {lu ... lu xa=
u} appears to start a second quote and then, doesn&#39;t. And finally you w=
ould need to specify how exactly {xau} interacts with {si} (is {ke xau} one=
 word or two?). Everything else would probably work out.<br>


</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Good poin=
t about quotations. Just leaving quotes out of this seems better, so no {lo=
&#39;u}, and even if strictly possible, not {le&#39;u} or {lu} either. Your=
 point about {lu} made we wonder though. What about {xau lu} versus {lu xau=
}? Would having {xau} go first make things more intelligible, and can that =
work grammatically? Not sure about {si} but I think probably one, b/c it is=
 probably better to repeat the whole thing if need be.</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"=
>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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