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[216.39.63.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id br10si2632188pdb.2.2014.08.20.07.17.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.119; Received: from [216.39.60.165] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2014 14:17:46 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.247] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2014 14:17:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1018.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2014 14:17:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 818598.75437.bm@omp1018.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 8032 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Aug 2014 14:17:46 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 1686Ui8VM1lsofv2IfThx6J770ORFn4XRNgzlGrInJzy45d pGrY89.Iii1sRNHPvsplnEofjSu8Tt1QPDg63RU.CtKbitx_PO_zWt.smIIv ky6HQx8gPYZenQ.FkMFZV.2rIyiybKgt2tgszrYBu9S6j0FJVU7L5xmKOToz 1aCy6qr.tw6VJvJJCLX9e0ZYNxRajrHMgD3DtTBkJHTuklcJHfmgqZ6XXOYz PJc2RzJiJQhlQLnXxiEPBTgD1O8ZO6ddNC5S2ujM.CgDa65ebT9Sj1ppyUsw KZ4DzTt8zs4tG_NFniJOfTfMRSxU9ALXH89ADh.uxS8hlE6s4smx83XEJb2g rFeJMT.6WT7z5S3VUB51SMKmsNjFBuGsXNQP7YK3Yj.KpwA4AqPk762F8xva bp4JbgQptgnB3F8pYOSbexDRoVcREmMYxa_kaZFZrOWu7ex3G48llfKQ09yb oxRV012HUi61Z4z50jbsp8LIgni3Dr3mtXo2qHbkowkbNiHjFgt5Weynxv8q ZGQtMluIFGHvg4c1aFdC1GvSj85O_llh7GielnrIxrFpPLlTnBzwk8FvGeUo 4wY0_eiXdnakFpfX3.0Rx3S5qgY9noWNytCQJXY_iWXcvvXxrIrLsHcHkQlF WWITkAwLyxKyt9WgBRI_ri3ciXKzUf1iPxTNu6bB24dDMcViKf0oxJ6UfLh5 OD0v6Phj0b3oSkxzFSXRkDqa5O0EkU2eEEUPcN6HSEjI- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:17:45 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,T29wcywgbXkgY29tbWVudHMgd2VyZSBhYm91dCB0aGUgZ2VuZXJhbCBwcmluY2lwbGUgKGZpbmFsIHZvd2VscyBmb3IgY29udmVydGluZyBwbGFjZSBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUpLCBub3QgYWJvdXQgdGhlIExvZ2xhbiAiZXhhbXBsZSIuIMKgTm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBMb2dsYW4gaXMsIGluIGZhY3QsIGZvdXIgcHJpbWl0aXZlIHByZWRpY2F0ZXMgd2hpY2hzaGFyZSBhIGNvbW1vbiBjZW50cmFsIGNvbmNlcHQgYW5kIGEgZm91ci1sZXR0ZXIgY2h1bmssIG5vdCBhIHNpbmdsZSBwcmVkaWNhdGUgd2l0aCB2YXJpYXRpb24BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.201.700 References: <68c85c6b-b8bb-4401-b7f6-f48cba9a3c6d@googlegroups.com> <113c94bf-6b0a-4a64-9d9c-0b5a54eb502b@googlegroups.com> <1408484446.69049.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1408544265.60960.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:17:45 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] End vowel for slot? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-2118220106-1408544265=:60960" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --564456775-2118220106-1408544265=:60960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops, my comments were about the general principle (final vowels for conver= ting place structure), not about the Loglan "example". =C2=A0Note that the = Loglan is, in fact, four primitive predicates whichshare a common central c= oncept and a four-letter chunk, not a single predicate with variations on t= he final vowel. =C2=A0There is no common predicate "x1 is a piece of the Lo= glan language as spoken in area x2 by speakers x3 reflecting cultural trait= s x4" or so. And, even if there were, this is a unique case and the princip= le was not generalized beyond this (and a fewe cultural predicates which al= so occurred in clusters). =C2=A0These cases are from before the "Great Morp= hological Revolution" (1980) which tended to disparage such similarity in p= rimitives in the interest of a more controlled derivation process. =C2=A0An= d the usual suggestion about final vowels i Loglan was to indicate the numb= er of arguments, a significant fact that was not visible at that stage. On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:31 PM, MorphemeAddict wr= ote: =20 The vowel groupings are in L4 with notations from 1975. They seem to be par= t of the original language.=C2=A0 logla,=C2=A0 log=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0L-Prim L4 '75 7.4 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(1n) B is an element/feature/expression of=C2=A0Loglan. [= B-] =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(a)=C2=A0Loglan, pert. to the loglan language.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0lo =E2=80=94=C2=A0(n)=C2=A0Loglan, the mass of such eleme= nts.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Used in: damlogla; =C2=A0logcia; =C2=A0logdia; =C2=A0logd= uo; =C2=A0logmao; =C2=A0logpli; =C2=A0logpozfa; =C2=A0logtaa; =C2=A0norlogl= a; =C2=A0 logle,=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0D-Prim JRK '83 3.6 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(1a) B is an=C2=A0Loglandic=C2=A0place/territory, a regio= n inhabited by Loglanders. =C2=A0[B-] =C2=A0 logli,=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0D-Prim L4 '75 1.0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(1n) B is anLoglan speaker/Loglander. =C2=A0[B-] =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(a)=C2=A0Loglan. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0lo =E2=80=94=C2=A0(n) (the)=C2=A0Loglanders, the mass of = such persons. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Used in: cnulogli; =C2=A0 loglo,=C2=A0 <=C2=A0=C2=A0D-Prim L4 '75 1.0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(1n) B is an element/feature/expression of the=C2=A0Logla= ndic=C2=A0culture. =C2=A0[B-] =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(a)=C2=A0Loglan, pert. to the Loglan culture. =C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0lo =E2=80=94=C2=A0(n)=C2=A0Loglan, the mass of such eleme= nts. =C2=A0 stevo On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 5:40 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: > > > >Well. this features must be relatively new. i.e., since JCB, =C2=A0It i no= t in the Loglan 1 of th 1980s. > > > >On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:00 PM, TR NS wrote: >=20 > > > > >On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 1:50:36 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >Loglan worked this way: >>logli =3D x1 is a Loglan speaker/Loglander. >>loglo =3D x1 is an element/feature/expression of the Loglandic culture. >>logle =3D x1 is an Loglandic place/territory, a region inhabited by Logla= nders. >>logla =3D x1 is an element/feature/expression of Loglan. >> >> > > >I did not know. I have the Loglan 1 book, but I haven't read much of it ye= t compared to the LLC. I'll have to look for that. > > >Thanks.=C2=A0 > > >.trans. >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --564456775-2118220106-1408544265=:60960 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oops, my comments were about the general principle= (final vowels for converting place structure), not about the Loglan "examp= le".  Note that the Loglan is, in fact, four primitive predicates whic= hshare a common central concept and a four-letter chunk, not a single predi= cate with variations on the final vowel.  There is no common predicate= "x1 is a piece of the Loglan language as spoken in area x2 by speakers x3 = reflecting cultural traits x4" or so. And, even if there were, this is a un= ique case and the principle was not generalized beyond this (and a fewe cul= tural predicates which also occurred in clusters).  These cases are fr= om before the "Great Morphological Revolution" (1980) which tended to dispa= rage such similarity in primitives in the interest of a more controlled derivation process.  And the usual suggestion about final = vowels i Loglan was to indicate the number of arguments, a significant fact= that was not visible at that stage.


= On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:31 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com= > wrote:


The vowel grou= pings are in L4 with notations from 1975. They seem to be part of the origi= nal language. 

logla, 
log <Loglan, the langua= ge>  L-Prim L4 '75 7.4
   (1n) B is an element/feature/expression of Loglan= . [B-]  
    (a) Log= lan, pert. to the loglan language. 
  =  lo =E2=80=94 (n) Loglan, the mass of such ele= ments. 
   Used in: damlogla;  logcia;  logdia;  logd= uo;  logmao;  logpli;  logpozfa;  logtaa;  norlogl= a;  
logle, 
<Loglan, the language>  D-P= rim JRK '83 3.6
   (1a) B is an Lo= glandic place/territory, a region inhabited by Loglanders.  [= B-]  
= logli, 
<Loglan, the language&g= t;  D-Prim L4 '75 1.0
   (1n) B is anLoglan speaker/Loglander.  = ;[B-]  
    (a) Loglan.  
   lo =E2=80=94 (n)= (the) Loglanders, the mass of such persons.  
   Used in: cnulogli;  
loglo, 
<<Loglan, the language>  D-Pr= im L4 '75 1.0
   (1n) B is an element/feature/expression of the Lo= glandic culture.  [B-]  
  &= nbsp; (a) Loglan, pert. to the Loglan culture.  
   lo =E2=80=94 (n) Loglan= , the mass of such elements.  
stevo


On Tue= , Aug 19, 2014 at 5:40 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban &= lt;lojban@goog= legroups.com> wrote:


Well. this features must be relatively new. i.e., since JCB,  It= i not in the Loglan 1 of th 1980s.


On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:00 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.c= om> wrote:



On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 1:50:36 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
Loglan worked this way:
logli =3D x1 is a Loglan speak= er/Loglander.
loglo =3D x1 is an element/feature/expression of th= e Loglandic culture.
logle =3D x1 is an Loglandic place/territory= , a region inhabited by Loglanders.
logla =3D x1 is an element/feature/expression of Loglan.


I did not know. I have the Loglan 1 book, but I haven't read mu= ch of it yet compared to the LLC. I'll have to look for that.

Thanks. 

.trans.
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