Received: from mail-we0-f187.google.com ([74.125.82.187]:48480) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XKLEh-0002yY-Qd for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:36 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f187.google.com with SMTP id u57sf926324wes.4 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SreTkwm6MndirgnYNNEj/Yuff628zwwRJ6WRPgI04hc=; b=tE0FbJQMxn9ufVpgO2T0BfiBfnLG916Se2ifxSzd5cyGvIzf49JoPogL+G4u+scf5o 1BRyiTcO7YwqrwMw3Nzeu0FJsB15xiWW0xbiCiLT5lb70X81Sw5IrNyOoUq/JL9kOJ2R hVOi67qVUARWcs3E8fwP/cRJ56pLSG4Iu819D3poX5F1HHUZY92t7utwLXrtr1fvyrUt 8ljH4EydCIxoR1BSRh4egzin7xJoTmUx3qFux0noPXhUQJL4Sq/d86LGuNCaTUSl6y9M 0VMw7tIvQYTvKwj4/iMOqzGc9JzkMlTZRFqpSQwO8eIKdE++cMGgHgfBpLkh6+iJ+ee9 ZVMw== X-Received: by 10.180.11.101 with SMTP id p5mr94224wib.3.1408600108719; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.93.135 with SMTP id cu7ls208750wib.1.gmail; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.198.172 with SMTP id jd12mr1645529wic.6.1408600108137; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q1si314736wij.1.2014.08.20.22.48.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u56so8778560wes.14 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.62.67 with SMTP id w3mr64160654wjr.32.1408600107989; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.142.148 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:48:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <543519c7-ee91-4ef3-90ed-8198ecf22b0d@googlegroups.com> <81ec7c3b-00b5-4bc0-839c-f137bc2c0991@googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:48:27 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] One end cmavo to rule them all From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b872e9a11426505011d45d9 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b872e9a11426505011d45d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would say that xa'u/xau can be used mostly for mekso where this left/right bracketing is one of the core ideas. In other parts of the grammar it looks extremely weird. But probably the existing famyma'o-intensive style is equally weird. 2014-08-21 0:46 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:02 PM, TR NS wrote: > >> >> Thanks. I have done that and began the work. Here is my progress: >> https://github.com/trans/lojban-sentinels >> > > I wouldn't call "xau" a magic word because it doesn't have the properties > of magic words, which are: > > (1) they modify practically any word (xau modifies only a small set of > words) > (2) the behavior of the resulting construct is independent of the choice > of modified word (for xau it's strongly dependent on it). > > In your list of transformations you say that "coi ... do'u", becomes "coi > ... xau coi", "co'o .... do'u" becomes "co'o ... xau co'o", and so on, bu= t > your proposed grammar change also allows "coi ... xau co'o", "co'o ... xa= u > ki'e", and so on. > > > Also, your new grammar is missing "xa'u". You need something like: > > KEhE-pre <- pre-clause (KEhE | XAhU | XAU KE) spaces? > > > Some terminators however have more than one purpose. If you allow "xau lo= " > to always replace "ku", for example, then you will be allowing things lik= e > "na xau lo" for "na ku". > > In your first example: > > .i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. li'u > .i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. xau lu > .i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. xa'u > > "xa'u" stands for "xau mi'e", not for "xau lu". > > >> >> Although still early (no doubt some important magic interactions still >> need consideration) I am thinking of introducing proposal in a new threa= d. >> > > If you want magic words to give "xau" special treatment rather than > treating it like any other non-magic word you will also need to tamper wi= th > the magic word grammar rules. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b872e9a11426505011d45d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would say that xa'u/xau can be used mostly for mekso= where this left/right bracketing is one of the core ideas. In other parts = of the grammar it looks extremely weird. But probably the existing famyma&#= 39;o-intensive style is equally weird.


2014-08-21 0:= 46 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:<= br>



On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:02 PM, TR NS <transfir= e@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks. I = have done that and began the work. Here is my progress: https://github.com/tra= ns/lojban-sentinels

I wouldn't call "xau&= quot; a magic word because it doesn't have the properties of magic word= s, which are:

(1) they modify practically any word= (xau modifies only a small set of words)
(2) the behavior of the resulting construct is independent of the choi= ce of modified word (for xau it's strongly dependent on it).
=
In your list of transformations you say that "coi ... d= o'u", becomes "coi ... xau coi", "co'o .... do&= #39;u" becomes "co'o ... xau co'o", and so on, but y= our proposed grammar change also allows "coi ... xau co'o", &= quot;co'o ... xau ki'e", and so on. =C2=A0


Also, your new grammar is missing "= xa'u". You need something like:

KEhE-pre <- pre-clause (KEhE | XAhU | XAU =
KE) spaces?

Some terminators however have more than one purpo= se. If you allow "xau lo" to always replace "ku", for e= xample, then you will be allowing things like "na xau lo" for &qu= ot;na ku".

In your first example:=C2=A0

.i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. l= i'u
.i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. xau lu
.i mi cusku lu mi'e djan. xa'u

"xa'u" stands= for "xau mi'e", not for "xau lu".

=C2=A0
Although still early (no doubt some important magic interactions still= need consideration) I am thinking of introducing proposal in a new thread.=

If you want magic words to giv= e "xau" special treatment rather than treating it like any other = non-magic word you will also need to tamper with the magic word grammar rul= es.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b872e9a11426505011d45d9--