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[216.39.62.65]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q14si2989853pdj.0.2014.08.21.07.05.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.65 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.62.65; Received: from [216.39.60.167] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2014 14:05:17 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.232] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2014 14:05:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1003.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2014 14:05:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 524315.75756.bm@omp1003.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 63472 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Aug 2014 14:05:16 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: ySGOWQwVM1nE7bQ1yZzjQryN6pIrxok8UMKtkK3QCo6ToZ9 xS4oY37q.8PT3vcAj4J0u.vnelQyTA_4wBqdIdgrNZ20vO5Wg.6_IubJXjF1 rnUFX.QCNs7NoqtY_pX_QwrrT_8dRoyfKosjXAcXJeMcWi1SML6FLKtJpW6X Cf7tfCb0_4BBoCmitFszEIuZH3StY0yGSKUNWvCY8ofXqAl5sOb2N4JfYqtp tR4YJAQvP7EO00eAEQh7mnJG3ieD6oo_mMXDhWtwDPFf9Z_K6CUuepOeQevQ wjkMu.dCm7YF4K4ww02oiVnCH60UAZqEYFteCQR8RFEXfNeK3iHIfv136xcM CVXmglys8u.E6HMu1Hzp7aL97QdW7virPACv2x0CQLTNAuJ7CXvgnmnAcOnb _GNbcL9W8gDMCm332shfpbh.2ZRCLACy6amf8Oln0KK9hFgdaVtgOp2VmrNo UAJ7Speu84C9r4wwuLl2h9i2VuscUvISBR_c5Q9ywCrN0r1mkBs61YnLEqoT fFPUP9nV7iheWEfJojxaiH9C09qVO6GCAsF53sbM4CP5Z6LhoKTIaDIG8jer 6_l0HSS3xYgKE_9pMmFoLzYhw3GEp5jbqLf55RBAFj.Z_4AngVE2HsCNdNEC _zRgiyioBkTvl0iJzZytBc2_YeaBdGydKCe7pfguoTDDf44q5_L3P2qPoCCL nb6kCwqaAA4d.2PWubATt7qjf9UEUOvPBjarXilKJeYxA9z7PLQRumjGT4t1 dw24md3vgbg5rwRWk6qbNNqQ9yBHnQFftZFTTSZjKmgoeoWzwklioHp4pfK0 EJd8- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:05:16 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Tm90IG11Y2guIMKgVm93ZWwgaGFybW9ueSB3b3VsZCB3cmVhayBoYXZvYyB3aXRoIHRoZSBldHltb2xvZ3kgb2YgcHJpbWl0aXZlcywgc2luY2Ugdm93ZWxzIGNvdW50IGFzIG11Y2ggYXMgY29uc29uYW50cyBpbiB0aGUgd29yZC1idWlsZGluZyBhbGdvcml0aG0uIMKgQnV0LCBvbmNlIHRoYXQgaXNzdWUgd2VyZSBzb2x2ZWQsIHRoZSBoYXJtb255IHdvdWxkIGJlIGxvc3QgaW4gZGVyaXZlIHByZWRpY2F0ZXMsIHNpbmNlIHRoZSB2b3dlbHMgY2Fycnkgb3ZlciB0byB0aGUgY29tcG9uZW50cyBhbmQgY2hhbmcBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.201.700 References: <68c85c6b-b8bb-4401-b7f6-f48cba9a3c6d@googlegroups.com> <5319526.JVFVWqe8Bi@caracal> <1408571597.9110.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1786092e-b5b1-4430-aa28-ae03d38fe083@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1408629916.67471.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:05:16 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] End vowel for slot? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1786092e-b5b1-4430-aa28-ae03d38fe083@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-476980698-1408629916=:67471" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---204173969-476980698-1408629916=:67471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not much. =A0Vowel harmony would wreak havoc with the etymology of primitiv= es, since vowels count as much as consonants in the word-building algorithm= . =A0But, once that issue were solved, the harmony would be lost in derive = predicates, since the vowels carry over to the components and changing them= to fit some preestablished pattern would interfere with their identificati= on. =A0Finally, and perhaps most damning, vowel harmony does not affect fun= ction words (mostly one syllable) where the problem of noisy channels is th= e gravest, because of the packed word space and the relatively little use c= ontext has in that area (many hard to distinguish words belong to categorie= s that occur in the same frames). =A0So, vowel harmony does not help nearly= enough to be worth pursuing. On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:08 PM, TR NS wrote: =20 On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 5:53:20 PM UTC-4, clifford wrote: Like most conlangs, Lojban gave virtually no consideration to the noisy roo= m problem -- and has resisted any attempt to deal with the issue since (but= then, so has English =A0"talk louder, repeat yourself, ...") > > Well considering lojban has just five pure vowel sounds, there is certainly= room for playing with vowel harmonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel= _harmony). --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-476980698-1408629916=:67471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not much.  Vowel harmony would wreak havoc wi= th the etymology of primitives, since vowels count as much as consonants in= the word-building algorithm.  But, once that issue were solved, the h= armony would be lost in derive predicates, since the vowels carry over to t= he components and changing them to fit some preestablished pattern would in= terfere with their identification.  Finally, and perhaps most damning,= vowel harmony does not affect function words (mostly one syllable) where t= he problem of noisy channels is the gravest, because of the packed word spa= ce and the relatively little use context has in that area (many hard to dis= tinguish words belong to categories that occur in the same frames).  S= o, vowel harmony does not help nearly enough to be worth pursuing.


<= div dir=3D"ltr"> On Wednesday, August 20, = 2014 10:08 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
=



On Wednesday, August 20= , 2014 5:53:20 PM UTC-4, clifford wrote:
Like most conlangs, Lojb= an gave virtually no consideration to the noisy room problem -- and has res= isted any attempt to deal with the issue since (but then, so has English &n= bsp;"talk louder, repeat yourself, ...")


Well c= onsidering lojban has just five pure vowel sounds, there is certainly room = for playing with vowel harmonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_harmo= ny).

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