Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <53F9FD82.6070306@lojban.org>
References: <fef8c82f-c3b3-4f99-925b-9b940d0c5913@googlegroups.com>
	<53F79061.5000706@lojban.org>
	<53F7D98A.5020101@lojban.org>
	<53F893AE.8030901@lojban.org>
	<53F9FD82.6070306@lojban.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:52:57 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+j-132HD32j29PWeTfqc7H0To8McWkhWc56SmPV6-9mKA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Revitalizing LLG: Suggestions for the 2014 annual meeting
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3ba097693c7c050162106c
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--e89a8f3ba097693c7c050162106c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

2014-08-24 18:58 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:

> On 8/23/2014 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>
>> 2014-08-23 17:14 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org
>> <mailto:lojbab@lojban.org>>:
>>
>>
>>     On 8/23/2014 12:33 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>>
>>              Probably.  I'm not sure that I could do it, and actually be
>>         able to
>>              communicate.
>>
>>         There are enough speakers in IRC who can at least produce Lojban
>>         sentences if not in real time but at least with the help of a
>>         dictionary.
>>
>>     But the suggestion specified meetings by email, not on IRC.
>>
>> Bob, I only mean that Lojban nowadays is not a project but a fully blown
>> USABLE and USED language. There are fluent speakers.
>>
>
> But for the most part, they haven't been especially interested in
> organizational matters.  Robin is one who has.  He's wanted someone to take
> on the Secretary/Treasurer job from him for years.  Not the slightest
> interest.  Even the relatively Lojbanic job of keeping the Lojban home page
> current with news has fallen by the wayside.
>
>
>  There are enough people who talk to each other in Lojban and understad
>> each other.
>>
>
> I'm sure there are.  But I never see them; only hear about them.
>
> For example, one would think that with all these fluent people, someone
> would have produced a in-Lojban blog and gotten a link to it on the home
> page.  Matt and a couple of others had blogs a couple years ago that were
> so-linked, but IIRC they were about Lojban rather than in the language.
>
> If IRC Lojban is so good, as some have said, someone could be selecting a
> "best of IRC" and making it easy to find.
>

I'm tagging sentences in tatoeba.org to improve the quality of this
database. It has > 10 000 sentences in Lojban. Many of them are taken from
IRC.

Otherwise, it's hard to read the logs in search of good sentences.
What is good and what is not?


> But I admit that I myself probably wouldn't be spending a lot of time
> trying to read them.  Reading and writing Lojban has always been hard work
> for me - worth doing but still hard.
>
>
>  That's why allowing people who can produce correct sentences in Lojban
>> should be forbidden.
>>
>
> I assume you meant "cannot".
>

Sorry yes.


>
> LLG might just disappear if we made such a rule.


First add to LLG those who can produce fine Lojban: selpa'i, tsani, mukti
(if they agree), me. may be others (but i havent asked them so can never be
sure.

If moving all discussions to Lojban fail then you can ban us and continue
the old policy of non-proliferation of Lojban zo'oru'e.

>
>
>  Speaking Lojban only is not a problem for a lot of people.
>>
>
> Good for them.  I approve.  But I'm not one of them.
>
>
>  Then why are we still talking about Lojban not in Lojban?
>>
>
> No one can stop us.  And for the most part, not that many want to do
> otherwise.
>
> This whole thread has been posted in English.  Nothing stopping any poster
> from posting in Lojban.


mi tugni i e'u co'u pilno lo glibau gi'e co'a pilno lo jbobau po'o
i ku'ido pu cusku losedu'u do na kakne i ku'i ma'a ka'e troci vau pei


>
>
>  I suggest that you allow fluent speakers + those who can produce correct
>> discourses in written form like in email lists.
>>
>
> I'm not stopping them.
>
>
>  If a person can speak fluent Lojban why disallow him/her from BPFK and
>> LLG?
>>
>
> Who is disallowing anyone?


Sorry, I think I need to read those bylaws more carefully. Could you remind
in two-three sentences of the procedure and requirements of applying new
members? Is it too hard?
In Lojbanistan I've been doing something else than reading LLG documents.
Namely, I have been working on new tutorials and on formalisation of gimste
lately.


>
>  I remember you logged in only once during the last 6 months or so.
>>
>
> Probably.  I don't try very often.
>
>      Any conclusion about Lojban reached based on the voting membership,
>>     many of whom date from when Lojban was NOT a working language, would
>>     be bound to be erroneous.  Then bear in mind that the primary focus
>>     of the membership is on organizational matters rather than Lojban
>>     matters.
>>
>> Well, as for financial issues sure, LLG members might know nothing about
>> Lojban.
>> But in general this situation is silly. What are we here for if not to
>> learn Lojban and produce texts in it?
>>
>
> Since you ask, I presume you have not read the bylaws:
>
>> Section 1. Purpose. The Logical Language Group, Inc. is established
>> to promote the scientific study of the relationships between
>> language, thought and human culture; to investigate the nature of
>> language and to determine the requirements for an
>> artificially-engineered natural language; to implement and experiment
>> with such a language; to devise and promote applications for this
>> language in fields including but not limited to linguistics,
>> psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science,
>> anthropology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduct and
>> support experimental and scholarly research in these fields as they
>> may bear upon the problems of artificial language development; to
>> communicate with and to educate interested persons and organizations
>> about these activities; to devise and develop means and instruments
>> needed for these activities; and to accumulate and publish the
>> results of such studies and developments. In the furtherance of these
>> purposes, and in addition to the above activities, The Logical
>> Language Group, Inc. may award grants to individuals for
>> experimentation, travel, publication, study and similar activities.
>>
>
> Over the years, LLG has chosen to limit its activities with regards to
> artificial languages to Lojban as opposed to alternatives.  But there is a
> lot more there than learning and using the language.
>

I agree. One of the recent theses on Lojban and FrameNet showed that Lojban
is a powerful tool for machine translation (at least potentially).

However, where are those other applications of Lojban shown by LLG?
I can't see any activities at all, neither in learning Lojban, nor
in psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics ...


> Not that I have a problem with others primarily interested in learning and
> using.  I was one of them for many years.  I could plausibly become one
> again, though I'd probably go in for translation.
>
> I've found that part of my problem with talking Lojban, is that I have
> found not much that I am interested in talking about in Lojban.  I am
> totally disinterested in the online social networking activities that most
> people are into these days.  I read a couple of blogs, but have almost
> never posted a response or comment to one. (I was a lot more active on
> Usenet when it was still thriving, but I rarely post there anymore either).
>
> But this is me; others may have different interests and priorities.
>
>      One might question the fact that almost all discussions of byfy
>>     matters has been in English rather than in Lojban (even when
>>     conducted by people who have demonstrated the ability to write
>>     voluminously in Lojban).  But of course if they were in Lojban,
>>     there would be zero chance that I would read them, for example.
>>
>> When Lojban was being developed people need to somehow explain that
>> "This construct is translated into English as..., use it in these
>> situations: ..."
>>
>> At that time English was a platform to build Lojban.
>>
>
> This doesn't seem to have changed.
>
>
>  However, nowadays Lojban is mostly complete and there is no need in
>> English.
>>
>
> Except for the fact that all of the postings are still in English.
>

In IRC most discussions fall back to English due to three reasons:
1. Newbies come and ask questions on Lojban
2. Computer terminology doesn't exist not only in Lojban but even e.g. in
Russian (for the most part ofc., Russian of course has words for "computer"
and other ordinary concepts borrowed from English again).
3. People don't discuss Lojban-related things (this is discouraged in
#lojban channel but nevertheless spontaneously happens sometimes)


>         I could do so, but it hasn't been my priority given the lack of
>>     time I have been spending in recent years.  I could wish it were
>>     otherwise, but it isn't.
>>
>> Well, of course. But do you wish other people continue the great work
>> you've done in past? If so the number of written stuff in Lojban should
>> increase over time.
>>
>
> I'm not stopping anyone.
>
>
>  More and more people should become fluent speakers. Nobody forbids you
>> to use English or any other languages of course.
>> It just appears that English is used to the detriment of Lojban these
>> days.
>>
>
> The best way to change that is to post in Lojban and get others who can do
> so to also do so.  If people are exposed to Lojban more, perhaps some will
> bother to spend time at it.  Right now, they have to go look for it.
>

.ie vi'oru'e


>
>          However, is it culturally neutral to continue using non-Lojban
>>         for that?
>>
>>     No, but the purpose of LLG meetings is to get LLG business done (and
>>     do so as quickly as possible, since business matters aren't the
>>     highest lojban-related priority for much of anyone in the community
>>     except possibly me), not demonstrate cultural neutrality.
>>
>> What business? If selling books then of course (Lojbanistan is
>> non-existent, neither The Bank of Lojban).
>>
>
> You can look at the minutes/summaries for many years and see what LLG
> business is.  If that isn't the sort of thing you are interested in, you
> may not want to be a member.  (Or maybe you can find some new business that
> LLG should be interested in, and try to win support.  Just don't assume
> that agreement will be automatic.)
>
>
>  But the bylaws, LLG minutes were written in English which is completely
>> crazy.
>>
>
> The bylaws were written before Lojban existed.  No one has bothered to
> translate them, so complaining is a waste of time.  Robin is probably
> capable of writing minutes in Lojban, but hasn't done so, and doesn't think
> it is very important.  If someone wants to take over his job and write
> minutes in Lojban, he might not object.
>
>
>      Lack of time is precisely the reason.  And for most of us, dealing
>>     with Lojban text (either writing it or reading it) takes a lot more
>>     time than dealing with English.
>>
>> Well, you are not going to rename this community into {ju'i glipli}, do
>> you? ;)
>>
>
> I assume that you are referring to the periodical that I edited for
> several years until 1994.  A couple others took over responsibility, but
> never produced an issue in any language.  If you can produce an issue of JL
> either partially or totally in Lojban, LLG might publish it.  (Of course
> our snail mail subscription list is probably worthless at this point, but
> we could produce an online periodical.)
>
>      Indeed I just checked and the whole effort to do meetings in Lojban
>>     appears to have been approved in 2002 but was removed and/or tabled
>>     indefinitely in 2003.  The one remaining motion approved in 2002 and
>>     never superseded, was that official stuff on the web be translated
>>     into Lojban.  So far as I know, absolutely nothing was ever done on
>>     this by the people advocating it.
>>
>> Why not start from the beginning? Now we do have people who can not only
>> translate existing bylaws but to produce new ones from scratch?
>>
>
> Bylaws don't work that way.  (Well, someone could produce a totally new
> set of bylaws, and get them adopted, but that isn't commonly done unless
> the organization has failed.)
>
>
>  I want the community to go forward. Shall we continue making no headway?
>>
>
> I've seen no evidence that anyone wants to do the work.
>
>      They can be, but they aren't.  And it has been noted that there are
>>     active people nowadays who don't know how to add to jbovlaste even
>>     though there are instructions.
>>
>> All of the active speakers I know of know how to add words to jbovlaste.
>> So for them this is not a problem.
>>
>
> Good for them.  Yet the issue was raised in this thread, by someone I
> think you consider active.


by me. Well, if you take active IRCers then they all know how to add words
to jbovlaste. If more people knew about this then they could become active
Lojbanists too. So not knowing about jbovlaste is a problem related to
non-optimal presentation of the information.


>   And I myself don't know how to do much of anything online on the web
> other than search it and read it.  I still live in the 20th century
> Internet, still read and edit emails off-line.
>
>      (I don't claim to be active in this sense, and I also do not know
>>     how because I haven't bothered to figure it out, never having wanted
>>     to add a word.)
>>
>>     Remember, BTW, that jbovlaste is an official project, but its
>>     contents are not automatically "official" merely by being added.
>>     We'd need some sort of formally published dictionary, approved by
>>     byfy and/or LLG (depending on the conditions specified in the 2002
>>     statement).
>>
>> Great.  Why not start discussing the new dictionary (discussing in
>> Lojban ofc.)?
>>
>
> No one is stopping you.
>
>          Your replies showed that the Bylaws can be superseded by other
>>         bylaws
>>         that weren't even published.
>>
>>     So far as I know, no Bylaws have been superseded, and there are no
>>     unpublished bylaws.  So I have no idea what you are referring to.
>>
>> I'm referring to your words: "They are supposed to be, but that item of
>> the bylaws has more or less been superseded with online meetings by the
>> non-publication of minutes."
>>
>
> The Secretary considers that the archived mailing list is sufficient to
> constitute the minutes.  No one has objected.  If someone did, then the
> Secretary would be obliged to come up with something or resign, and no one
> wants Robin to resign, since there is no one else who wants the job.
>
> The solution is to find someone who wants to produce real minutes. Robin
> has said that he is willing to submit them if someone else produces them.
>
>      None of them were originally written in Lojban, and as yet, none
>>     have been translated, so your response doesn't answer your original
>>     statement about said initially written ones.
>>
>>
>> If published bylaws are all still valid and we can accet them as
>> ultimate truth then we ofc. can translate them. But by "we" I suppose
>> only members of LLG which I'm not.
>>
>
> Anyone can translate them.  No one is stopping you.  To get such a
> translation approved so as to supersede the English version would likely be
> a bit harder, since it would have to be approved as an amendment to the
> existing Bylaws
>
>      LLG pretty much takes anyone who wants to join and is committed to
>>     the goals and responsibilities of membership (which are primarily
>>     organizational - see the Bylaws).
>>
>>
>> ^ I will reply later to this.
>>
>
> OK
>
>         BPFK takes people under whatever conditions the jatna sets.
>>
>> Robin  said anyone could name themselves a member of BPFK.
>>
>
> Then those are the conditions %^)
>
>
> lojbab
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--e89a8f3ba097693c7c050162106c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-08-24 18:58 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</=
a>&gt;</span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">On 8/23/2014 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote=
:<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
2014-08-23 17:14 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@=
lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a><br></div>
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lo=
jban.org</a>&gt;&gt;:<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 8/23/2014 12:33 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Probably.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not=
 sure that I could do it, and actually be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 able to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0communicate.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There are enough speakers in IRC who can at lea=
st produce Lojban<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sentences if not in real time but at least with=
 the help of a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 dictionary.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But the suggestion specified meetings by email, not on IRC.<b=
r>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Bob, I only mean that Lojban nowadays is not a project but a fully blown<br=
>
USABLE and USED language. There are fluent speakers.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
But for the most part, they haven&#39;t been especially interested in organ=
izational matters.=C2=A0 Robin is one who has.=C2=A0 He&#39;s wanted someon=
e to take on the Secretary/Treasurer job from him for years.=C2=A0 Not the =
slightest interest.=C2=A0 Even the relatively Lojbanic job of keeping the L=
ojban home page current with news has fallen by the wayside.<div class=3D""=
>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
There are enough people who talk to each other in Lojban and understad<br>
each other.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I&#39;m sure there are.=C2=A0 But I never see them; only hear about them.<b=
r>
<br>
For example, one would think that with all these fluent people, someone wou=
ld have produced a in-Lojban blog and gotten a link to it on the home page.=
=C2=A0 Matt and a couple of others had blogs a couple years ago that were s=
o-linked, but IIRC they were about Lojban rather than in the language.<br>

<br>
If IRC Lojban is so good, as some have said, someone could be selecting a &=
quot;best of IRC&quot; and making it easy to find.<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>I&#39;m tagging sentences in <a href=3D"http://tatoeba.org">tat=
oeba.org</a> to improve the quality of this database. It has &gt; 10 000 se=
ntences in Lojban. Many of them are taken from IRC.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Otherwise, it&#39;s hard to read the logs in search of =
good sentences.<br></div><div>What is good and what is not?</div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
But I admit that I myself probably wouldn&#39;t be spending a lot of time t=
rying to read them.=C2=A0 Reading and writing Lojban has always been hard w=
ork for me - worth doing but still hard.<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
That&#39;s why allowing people who can produce correct sentences in Lojban<=
br>
should be forbidden.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I assume you meant &quot;cannot&quot;.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Sorry yes.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
LLG might just disappear if we made such a rule.</blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>First add to LLG those who can produce fine Lojban: selpa&#39;i, tsan=
i, mukti (if they agree), me. may be others (but i havent asked them so can=
 never be sure.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If moving all discussions to Lojban fail then you can b=
an us and continue the old policy of non-proliferation of Lojban zo&#39;oru=
&#39;e.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
Speaking Lojban only is not a problem for a lot of people.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Good for them.=C2=A0 I approve.=C2=A0 But I&#39;m not one of them.<div clas=
s=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
Then why are we still talking about Lojban not in Lojban?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
No one can stop us.=C2=A0 And for the most part, not that many want to do o=
therwise.<br>
<br>
This whole thread has been posted in English.=C2=A0 Nothing stopping any po=
ster from posting in Lojban.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>mi tugni i e&#=
39;u co&#39;u pilno lo glibau gi&#39;e co&#39;a pilno lo jbobau po&#39;o</d=
iv>
<div>i ku&#39;ido pu cusku losedu&#39;u do na kakne i ku&#39;i ma&#39;a ka&=
#39;e troci vau pei</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
I suggest that you allow fluent speakers + those who can produce correct<br=
>
discourses in written form like in email lists.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I&#39;m not stopping them.<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
If a person can speak fluent Lojban why disallow him/her from BPFK and LLG?=
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Who is disallowing anyone?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry, I think I=
 need to read those bylaws more carefully. Could you remind in two-three se=
ntences of the procedure and requirements of applying new members? Is it to=
o hard?</div>
<div>In Lojbanistan I&#39;ve been doing something else than reading LLG doc=
uments. Namely, I have been working on new tutorials and on formalisation o=
f gimste lately.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
I remember you logged in only once during the last 6 months or so.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Probably.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t try very often.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Any conclusion about Lojban reached based on the voting membe=
rship,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 many of whom date from when Lojban was NOT a working language=
, would<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be bound to be erroneous.=C2=A0 Then bear in mind that the pr=
imary focus<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the membership is on organizational matters rather than Lo=
jban<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 matters.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Well, as for financial issues sure, LLG members might know nothing about<br=
>
Lojban.<br>
But in general this situation is silly. What are we here for if not to<br>
learn Lojban and produce texts in it?<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Since you ask, I presume you have not read the bylaws:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
Section 1. Purpose. The Logical Language Group, Inc. is established<br>
to promote the scientific study of the relationships between<br>
language, thought and human culture; to investigate the nature of<br>
language and to determine the requirements for an<br>
artificially-engineered natural language; to implement and experiment<br>
with such a language; to devise and promote applications for this<br>
language in fields including but not limited to linguistics,<br>
psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science,<br>
anthropology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduct and<br>
support experimental and scholarly research in these fields as they<br>
may bear upon the problems of artificial language development; to<br>
communicate with and to educate interested persons and organizations<br>
about these activities; to devise and develop means and instruments<br>
needed for these activities; and to accumulate and publish the<br>
results of such studies and developments. In the furtherance of these<br>
purposes, and in addition to the above activities, The Logical<br>
Language Group, Inc. may award grants to individuals for<br>
experimentation, travel, publication, study and similar activities.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Over the years, LLG has chosen to limit its activities with regards to arti=
ficial languages to Lojban as opposed to alternatives.=C2=A0 But there is a=
 lot more there than learning and using the language.<br></blockquote><div>
<br></div><div>I agree. One of the recent theses on Lojban and FrameNet sho=
wed that Lojban is a powerful tool for machine translation (at least potent=
ially).</div><div><br></div><div>However, where are those other application=
s of Lojban shown by LLG?=C2=A0</div>
<div>I can&#39;t see any activities at all, neither in learning Lojban, nor=
 in=C2=A0psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics ...<br></div><div><br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
Not that I have a problem with others primarily interested in learning and =
using.=C2=A0 I was one of them for many years.=C2=A0 I could plausibly beco=
me one again, though I&#39;d probably go in for translation.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve found that part of my problem with talking Lojban, is that I have =
found not much that I am interested in talking about in Lojban.=C2=A0 I am =
totally disinterested in the online social networking activities that most =
people are into these days.=C2=A0 I read a couple of blogs, but have almost=
 never posted a response or comment to one. (I was a lot more active on Use=
net when it was still thriving, but I rarely post there anymore either).<br=
>

<br>
But this is me; others may have different interests and priorities.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One might question the fact that almost all discussions of by=
fy<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 matters has been in English rather than in Lojban (even when<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 conducted by people who have demonstrated the ability to writ=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 voluminously in Lojban).=C2=A0 But of course if they were in =
Lojban,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there would be zero chance that I would read them, for exampl=
e.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
When Lojban was being developed people need to somehow explain that<br>
&quot;This construct is translated into English as..., use it in these<br>
situations: ...&quot;<br>
<br>
At that time English was a platform to build Lojban.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
This doesn&#39;t seem to have changed.<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
However, nowadays Lojban is mostly complete and there is no need in English=
.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Except for the fact that all of the postings are still in English.<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>In IRC most discussions fall back to English du=
e to three reasons:</div><div>1. Newbies come and ask questions on Lojban</=
div>
<div>2. Computer terminology doesn&#39;t exist not only in Lojban but even =
e.g. in Russian (for the most part ofc., Russian of course has words for &q=
uot;computer&quot; and other ordinary concepts borrowed from English again)=
.</div>
<div>3. People don&#39;t discuss Lojban-related things (this is discouraged=
 in #lojban channel but nevertheless spontaneously happens sometimes)</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I could do so, but it hasn&#39;t been my priorit=
y given the lack of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 time I have been spending in recent years.=C2=A0 I could wish=
 it were<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 otherwise, but it isn&#39;t.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Well, of course. But do you wish other people continue the great work<br>
you&#39;ve done in past? If so the number of written stuff in Lojban should=
<br>
increase over time.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
I&#39;m not stopping anyone.<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
More and more people should become fluent speakers. Nobody forbids you<br>
to use English or any other languages of course.<br>
It just appears that English is used to the detriment of Lojban these days.=
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
The best way to change that is to post in Lojban and get others who can do =
so to also do so.=C2=A0 If people are exposed to Lojban more, perhaps some =
will bother to spend time at it.=C2=A0 Right now, they have to go look for =
it.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>.ie vi&#39;oru&#39;e</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex">

<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 However, is it culturally neutral to continue u=
sing non-Lojban<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for that?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 No, but the purpose of LLG meetings is to get LLG business do=
ne (and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 do so as quickly as possible, since business matters aren&#39=
;t the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 highest lojban-related priority for much of anyone in the com=
munity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 except possibly me), not demonstrate cultural neutrality.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
What business? If selling books then of course (Lojbanistan is<br>
non-existent, neither The Bank of Lojban).<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
You can look at the minutes/summaries for many years and see what LLG busin=
ess is.=C2=A0 If that isn&#39;t the sort of thing you are interested in, yo=
u may not want to be a member.=C2=A0 (Or maybe you can find some new busine=
ss that LLG should be interested in, and try to win support.=C2=A0 Just don=
&#39;t assume that agreement will be automatic.)<div class=3D"">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
But the bylaws, LLG minutes were written in English which is completely<br>
crazy.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
The bylaws were written before Lojban existed.=C2=A0 No one has bothered to=
 translate them, so complaining is a waste of time.=C2=A0 Robin is probably=
 capable of writing minutes in Lojban, but hasn&#39;t done so, and doesn=
9;t think it is very important.=C2=A0 If someone wants to take over his job=
 and write minutes in Lojban, he might not object.<br>

<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lack of time is precisely the reason.=C2=A0 And for most of u=
s, dealing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with Lojban text (either writing it or reading it) takes a lo=
t more<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 time than dealing with English.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Well, you are not going to rename this community into {ju&#39;i glipli}, do=
<br>
you? ;)<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
I assume that you are referring to the periodical that I edited for several=
 years until 1994.=C2=A0 A couple others took over responsibility, but neve=
r produced an issue in any language.=C2=A0 If you can produce an issue of J=
L either partially or totally in Lojban, LLG might publish it.=C2=A0 (Of co=
urse our snail mail subscription list is probably worthless at this point, =
but we could produce an online periodical.)<br>

<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Indeed I just checked and the whole effort to do meetings in =
Lojban<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appears to have been approved in 2002 but was removed and/or =
tabled<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 indefinitely in 2003.=C2=A0 The one remaining motion approved=
 in 2002 and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 never superseded, was that official stuff on the web be trans=
lated<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 into Lojban.=C2=A0 So far as I know, absolutely nothing was e=
ver done on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this by the people advocating it.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Why not start from the beginning? Now we do have people who can not only<br=
>
translate existing bylaws but to produce new ones from scratch?<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Bylaws don&#39;t work that way.=C2=A0 (Well, someone could produce a totall=
y new set of bylaws, and get them adopted, but that isn&#39;t commonly done=
 unless the organization has failed.)<div class=3D""><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
I want the community to go forward. Shall we continue making no headway?<br=
>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I&#39;ve seen no evidence that anyone wants to do the work.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 They can be, but they aren&#39;t.=C2=A0 And it has been noted=
 that there are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 active people nowadays who don&#39;t know how to add to jbovl=
aste even<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though there are instructions.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
All of the active speakers I know of know how to add words to jbovlaste.<br=
>
So for them this is not a problem.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Good for them.=C2=A0 Yet the issue was raised in this thread, by someone I =
think you consider active.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>by me. Well, if =
you take active IRCers then they all know how to add words to jbovlaste. If=
 more people knew about this then they could become active Lojbanists too. =
So not knowing about jbovlaste is a problem related to non-optimal presenta=
tion of the information.</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 And I myself don=
9;t know how to do much of anything online on the web other than search it =
and read it.=C2=A0 I still live in the 20th century Internet, still read an=
d edit emails off-line.<br>

<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (I don&#39;t claim to be active in this sense, and I also do =
not know<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 how because I haven&#39;t bothered to figure it out, never ha=
ving wanted<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to add a word.)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Remember, BTW, that jbovlaste is an official project, but its=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 contents are not automatically &quot;official&quot; merely by=
 being added.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We&#39;d need some sort of formally published dictionary, app=
roved by<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 byfy and/or LLG (depending on the conditions specified in the=
 2002<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 statement).<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Great.=C2=A0 Why not start discussing the new dictionary (discussing in<br>
Lojban ofc.)?<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
No one is stopping you.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Your replies showed that the Bylaws can be supe=
rseded by other<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bylaws<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that weren&#39;t even published.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So far as I know, no Bylaws have been superseded, and there a=
re no<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 unpublished bylaws.=C2=A0 So I have no idea what you are refe=
rring to.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
I&#39;m referring to your words: &quot;They are supposed to be, but that it=
em of<br>
the bylaws has more or less been superseded with online meetings by the<br>
non-publication of minutes.&quot;<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
The Secretary considers that the archived mailing list is sufficient to con=
stitute the minutes.=C2=A0 No one has objected.=C2=A0 If someone did, then =
the Secretary would be obliged to come up with something or resign, and no =
one wants Robin to resign, since there is no one else who wants the job.<br=
>

<br>
The solution is to find someone who wants to produce real minutes. Robin ha=
s said that he is willing to submit them if someone else produces them.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 None of them were originally written in Lojban, and as yet, n=
one<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have been translated, so your response doesn&#39;t answer you=
r original<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 statement about said initially written ones.<br>
<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
If published bylaws are all still valid and we can accet them as<br>
ultimate truth then we ofc. can translate them. But by &quot;we&quot; I sup=
pose<br>
only members of LLG which I&#39;m not.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Anyone can translate them.=C2=A0 No one is stopping you.=C2=A0 To get such =
a translation approved so as to supersede the English version would likely =
be a bit harder, since it would have to be approved as an amendment to the =
existing Bylaws<br>

<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 LLG pretty much takes anyone who wants to join and is committ=
ed to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the goals and responsibilities of membership (which are prima=
rily<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 organizational - see the Bylaws).<br>
<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
^ I will reply later to this.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
OK<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BPFK takes people under whatever conditions the =
jatna sets.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"">
Robin=C2=A0 said anyone could name themselves a member of BPFK.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Then those are the conditions %^)<div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
lojbab<br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@<u></u>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/<u></u>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<u></u>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--e89a8f3ba097693c7c050162106c--