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[216.39.63.95]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q14si3971529pdj.0.2014.08.24.11.24.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.95 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.95; Received: from [216.39.60.169] by nm7.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2014 18:24:20 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.240] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2014 18:24:20 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1011.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2014 18:24:20 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 654505.9257.bm@omp1011.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 33146 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Aug 2014 18:24:19 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: F_EEh1AVM1nuoI5a4C4sCKR0eENrEgho41UovpNLzQs6TYv t3.OX6WEVtwwTfq0UnHD42hf81U3I6tG4cmqXjI2y4JDnEOxjHETv9HnaX1n ZcVnn2dxX6yH81vlPMnjXCdQ6o0Bu_4Ptem.Ex3erJ3vTIw6DWc7HnvY4xvb cKHDc0moPZw57oIqCWlk6HBJX_RecQj7dmLv4Fii6QKdaMNuVddGy1h1F2f1 sLV0rEHb_._5LxW28GOlAxNjKpaQzKYsK1.ybqLeBtVegI8HsPKg4mbzZjix CbOYFKBOVQukc_GYqx6qz0eoYgA7X1exuRwwRNkaKqxcrPUiBDjOihoqMlea snQIOQ7VX14V2dYSRfKV5P6t3Rek248.0U9dW70Z3sRQ_FM0.sjAxYUetCR4 r._c4puqlPdCpB84kb1z9xrn4_1n4LJxVebv3ApLQNYGyd5cISBkh0nT.DwP TOQOhumZwzumtpUr53je4.qj7vzNnhAwwxD.YNO6Ju3wTG3o9ae3K3gw8TnM HGL.l6t_9Y9JDeQExuVs8YUfAICSGTRZC3y7c8VdQHcZfMPLPh8FdD7rvcyD juw8hesZLxoOEIvY5DaAMun_.8pH.B17FMPUvuAUHnUTmk5hs5hAyU8IW0pX S.aNqEQ1UsBpqoxE.ZrdYBjO4_MY2xMaDqY5cWV7ks0IwSv5pqcPap4MmdLr OwLHvcoxJOBzKoueqUPQOdB_eJG9rXoZhOO3z8.Z2d_AS1st33CQxP0SnYPG 9crSf7wIfzk.BWXgOYeB_nSKtXH.iIqKAnhc- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:24:19 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2VsbCwgImJldHRlciIgaXMgdHJpY2t5LCBzaW5jZSB3ZSBuZXZlciB0ZXN0ZWQgwqBob3cgImdvb2QiIHRoZSBMb2dsYW4vTG9qYmFuIHN5c3RlbSB3YXMuIMKgQnV0IGEgcHJpb3JpIGNyZWF0aW9ucyB3b3VsZCBoZWxwIHdpdGggaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQgdGhlIHByZXNlbnQgc3lzdGVtIGlnbm9yZXMsIGxpa2UgYmV0dGVyIHdvcmQgc2VwYXJhdGlvbiAodGhlIG5vaXN5IGNoYW5uZWwgcHJvYmxlbSBvciBqdXN0IGZpbmRpbmcgbW9yZSByYWZzaSkgb3IgbW9yZSBlcXVpdGFibGUgcGhvbmVtZSBkaXN0cmlidXQBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.201.700 References: <68c85c6b-b8bb-4401-b7f6-f48cba9a3c6d@googlegroups.com> <26e79a95-2448-48cf-b269-f295f3073ddf@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1408904659.20102.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:24:19 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: End vowel for slot? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.95 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1013620071-1518429099-1408904659=:20102" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --1013620071-1518429099-1408904659=:20102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, "better" is tricky, since we never tested =A0how "good" the Loglan/Lo= jban system was. =A0But a priori creations would help with issues that the = present system ignores, like better word separation (the noisy channel prob= lem or just finding more rafsi) or more equitable phoneme distribution (for= some aesthetic reason). =A0But it is a real pain to do, whereas the presen= t system gave a good starting point that got the creators most of the way t= hrough the list. =A0Of course, a program could be devised to generate a fie= ld of =A0words of predetermined form, satisfying the distribution criteria = and then assign them willy-nilly (or even under some criteria) to a list (f= rom somewhere -- maybe Loglan, after all) of meanings. I'm not sure that wo= uld be significantly harder to learn the the gismu list (and, indeed, it mi= ght well provide a real test for the claim that the present list is easy to= learn -- against everyone's experiences). On Sunday, August 24, 2014 11:32 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: =20 2014-08-24 20:21 GMT+04:00 MorphemeAddict : A priori creation is one. It could be much better than what was actually do= ne.=A0 Then show one. =A0 > >stevo > > > >On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > >> >> >> >> >>2014-08-24 17:41 GMT+04:00 TR NS : >> >> >>On Sunday, August 24, 2014 12:40:19 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dgism >>>> >>> >>>"However, they are there from the gismu creation process to provide mnem= onic assistance. How quickly would you learn banguwithout the angu of the E= nglish (pronounced languedj)? Would a Chinese speaker learn vanju as easily= without the chinese "jiu" (pronounced [dziou]) being the entire second syl= lable?" >>> >>> >>> >>>I can't really take this explanation seriously. I personally think this = one place Logan/Lojban failed. Creating words by statistically mixing the l= etters of words from other languages just ends up creating words that on th= e whole no one recognizes.=A0 >> >> >>.ie >>However, what are the alternatives?=A0 >>--=20 >>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >> >> >>--=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --1013620071-1518429099-1408904659=:20102 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, "better" is tricky, since we never tested &n= bsp;how "good" the Loglan/Lojban sy= stem was.  But a priori creations would help with issues that the pres= ent system ignores, like better word separation (the noisy channel problem = or just finding more rafsi) or more equitable phoneme distribution (for som= e aesthetic reason).  But it is a real pain to do, whereas the present= system gave a good starting point that got the creators most of the way th= rough the list.  Of course, a program could be devised to generate a f= ield of  words of predetermined form, satisfying the distribution crit= eria and then assign them willy-nilly (or even under some criteria) to a li= st (from somewhere -- maybe Loglan, after all) of meanings. I'm not sure that would be significantly harder to learn the the gismu list (and, indee= d, it might well provide a real test for the claim that the present list is= easy to learn -- against everyone's experiences).


On Sunday, August 24, 2014 11:32 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gl= eki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:




2014-08-24 20:21 GM= T+04:00 MorphemeAddict <lyt= lesw@gmail.com>:
A priori creation is one. It could= be much better than what was actually done. 

Then show one.
<= div> 

stevo


On Sun, Aug 24, 2014= at 10:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:



2014-08-24 17:41 GMT+04:0= 0 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:

On Sunday, Au= gust 24, 2014 12:40:19 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:

"However= , they are there from the gismu creation process to provide mnemonic assist= ance. How quickly would you learn banguwithout the angu of the English (pro= nounced languedj)? Would a Chinese speaker learn vanju as easily without th= e chinese "jiu" (pronounced [dziou]) being the entire second syllable?"

I can't really take this explanation ser= iously. I personally think this one place Logan/Lojban failed. Creating wor= ds by statistically mixing the letters of words from other languages just e= nds up creating words that on the whole no one recognizes. 

.ie
H= owever, what are the alternatives? 
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