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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 19:23:36 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+hCiwqDtene82udKa1KVkWuyZ6XZGsu8_2Unht0qL-USA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Letter Frequency in lojban
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-08-25 18:58 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:

> Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was something about the sound
> of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it was just me not being
> familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and listened to usages of
> the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it was more than this.
> In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at
>  letter frequency comparisons.
>
> I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban and may do my own, but I
> think this list
>
>     iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy
>
> (Note the list on the wiki isn't too far off from this, but includes
> various example lists in its corpus which is not really a good sample of
> usage.)
>
> Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view
> here: http://simia.net/letters/.
>

This list doesnt contain Mandarin pinyin which is important.

(Note that the Russian alphbet can be a bit misleading so refer to
> http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php)
>
> While I do not think the placement of vowels is so significant, it is
> interesting to note that no natural language appears to have more than four
> vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairly rare. `u` is almost
> always much further down the list. Also `i` is very rarely the number one
> letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almost certainly from the
> use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is clearly vowel heavy
> and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of the primary vowel
> sounds.
>
> The more significant difference is in the constants where almost
> invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every natural
> language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g` tend
> to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to Lojban
> with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it really stands
> out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.
>
> Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it is important and an
> inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely spoken language for the
> simple reason that, in this regard, it is running contrary to many
> millennia of natural language evolution.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-08-25 18:58 GMT+04:00 TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ever since I started l=
earning Lojban, there was something about the sound of it that felt very un=
natural. At first I thought it was just me not being familiar with it. As I=
 spent more time with it and listened to usages of the language on YouTube,=
 it became clear to me that it was more than this. In particular the letter=
 `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at =C2=A0letter frequency c=
omparisons.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve seen a couple of different lists for Lojban an=
d may do my own, but I think this list</div><div><br></div><font face=3D"co=
urier new, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 iaouel&#39;ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy</font><div=
><font face=3D"courier new, monospace"><br>
</font></div><div>(Note the list on the wiki isn&#39;t too far off from thi=
s, but includes various example lists in its corpus which is not really a g=
ood sample of usage.)<font face=3D"courier new, monospace"><br><br></font><=
div>
Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view h=
ere: <a href=3D"http://simia.net/letters/" target=3D"_blank">http://simia.n=
et/letters/</a>.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This lis=
t doesnt contain Mandarin pinyin which is important.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div> (=
Note that the Russian alphbet can be a bit misleading so refer to <a href=
=3D"http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php</a>)<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>While I do not think the placement of vowels is s=
o significant, it is interesting to note that no natural language appears t=
o have more than four vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairl=
y rare. `u` is almost always much further down the list. Also `i` is very r=
arely the number one letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almos=
t certainly from the use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is =
clearly vowel heavy and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of t=
he primary vowel sounds.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The more significant difference is in the constants whe=
re almost invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every =
natural language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g=
` tend to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to =
Lojban with `l` `&#39;` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it real=
ly stands out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it=
 is important and an inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely sp=
oken language for the simple reason that, in this regard, it is running con=
trary to many millennia of natural language evolution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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