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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:51:43 +0100
Message-ID: <CACf3dPmrsnPEvjfaqy7jr2ncq=b1a-=QneazvjWreRqvBrELPA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Letter Frequency in lojban
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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You are looking at letter frequencies, which is only a dim and distorted
reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and distorted to be worth wasting
time over, I think.

Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are less stable
diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strikes me as an
optimal design feature for an engelang.

Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies renders a
language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking rational or
empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for it to be
possible to cite counterexamples.

--And.
On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was something about the sound
> of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it was just me not being
> familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and listened to usages of
> the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it was more than this.
> In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at
>  letter frequency comparisons.
>
> I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban and may do my own, but I
> think this list
>
>     iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy
>
> (Note the list on the wiki isn't too far off from this, but includes
> various example lists in its corpus which is not really a good sample of
> usage.)
>
> Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view
> here: http://simia.net/letters/. (Note that the Russian alphbet can be a
> bit misleading so refer to
> http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php)
>
> While I do not think the placement of vowels is so significant, it is
> interesting to note that no natural language appears to have more than four
> vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairly rare. `u` is almost
> always much further down the list. Also `i` is very rarely the number one
> letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almost certainly from the
> use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is clearly vowel heavy
> and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of the primary vowel
> sounds.
>
> The more significant difference is in the constants where almost
> invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every natural
> language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g` tend
> to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to Lojban
> with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it really stands
> out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.
>
> Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it is important and an
> inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely spoken language for the
> simple reason that, in this regard, it is running contrary to many
> millennia of natural language evolution.
>
>  --
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<p dir=3D"ltr">You are looking at letter frequencies, which is only a dim a=
nd distorted reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and distorted to be w=
orth wasting time over, I think.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are=
 less stable diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strike=
s me as an optimal design feature for an engelang.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies r=
enders a language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking ra=
tional or empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for=
 it to be possible to cite counterexamples.</p>

<p dir=3D"ltr">--And.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, &quot;TR NS&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br ty=
pe=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was somet=
hing about the sound of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it =
was just me not being familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and li=
stened to usages of the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it =
was more than this. In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then las=
t night I looked at =C2=A0letter frequency comparisons.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve seen a couple of different lists for Lojban an=
d may do my own, but I think this list</div><div><br></div><font face=3D"co=
urier new, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 iaouel&#39;ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy</font><div=
><font face=3D"courier new, monospace"><br>
</font></div><div>(Note the list on the wiki isn&#39;t too far off from thi=
s, but includes various example lists in its corpus which is not really a g=
ood sample of usage.)<font face=3D"courier new, monospace"><br><br></font><=
div>
Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view h=
ere: <a href=3D"http://simia.net/letters/" target=3D"_blank">http://simia.n=
et/letters/</a>. (Note that the Russian alphbet can be a bit misleading so =
refer to <a href=3D"http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php</=
a>)<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>While I do not think the placement of vowels is s=
o significant, it is interesting to note that no natural language appears t=
o have more than four vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairl=
y rare. `u` is almost always much further down the list. Also `i` is very r=
arely the number one letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almos=
t certainly from the use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is =
clearly vowel heavy and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of t=
he primary vowel sounds.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The more significant difference is in the constants whe=
re almost invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every =
natural language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g=
` tend to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to =
Lojban with `l` `&#39;` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it real=
ly stands out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it=
 is important and an inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely sp=
oken language for the simple reason that, in this regard, it is running con=
trary to many millennia of natural language evolution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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