Received: from mail-wg0-f60.google.com ([74.125.82.60]:50988) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XLwsy-0003jw-QN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:50 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f60.google.com with SMTP id x13sf1416292wgg.25 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=a47JWpwdcbCBqidZrbsq36TkElXERvRzaJiLZMKBDK4=; b=nJkmc2zYnak4gvMq7tuwoDmN+lBXEQ5ClUnFW99oocgVBlGKxNVaVAawRza7JZmByB eMw4/ztGrY8aht/wMV/SmCIkNmt+YKJ/LYVsZmip2p5RCTs1AitymPaOCobphJiIvN8m mT8TcbTIqZjRzUMZpnGGuIFV+HaPvBmeMP0qoOUA8lubHgNDXjBF1PkPPZz3G4eelXcp rxtFKiQisrcsjX+Ew2q40rQk2XiXWEv2CUBXmlez0iRM78lduuno1CXyCaHTIvK2Fi9Y ucXBTW6RGg7oObGAW+k4p5t44xql/GHQWnQm5jNiXrQbuBHMgZo0SM2yaZk00tTkiqJu NzOA== X-Received: by 10.152.88.77 with SMTP id be13mr12145lab.29.1408983161873; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.206.4 with SMTP id lk4ls430259lac.41.gmail; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.27.2 with SMTP id p2mr27450lag.8.1408983161200; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22b.google.com (mail-we0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cj2si47312wid.2.2014.08.25.09.12.41 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b; Received: by mail-we0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id p10so13557799wes.2 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.95.8 with SMTP id dg8mr6426918wjb.1.1408983161056; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:12:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8D08DAC0705BEED-E34-41DDD@webmail-d263.sysops.aol.com> <48cd77a8-350c-472c-b0f7-e1f527500707@googlegroups.com> <390cce56-e2e2-480e-8287-d58023e9ae6a@googlegroups.com> <2997de16-c428-4e61-ab16-0e593b58adfa@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 20:12:40 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Letter Frequency in lojban From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc0f56cf33ea0501767484 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bdc0f56cf33ea0501767484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I wonder what phoneme frequencies Ubykh language had. 2014-08-25 19:51 GMT+04:00 And Rosta : > You are looking at letter frequencies, which is only a dim and distorted > reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and distorted to be worth wasting > time over, I think. > > Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are less stable > diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strikes me as an > optimal design feature for an engelang. > > Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies renders a > language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking rational or > empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for it to be > possible to cite counterexamples. > > --And. > On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" wrote: > >> Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was something about the sound >> of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it was just me not being >> familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and listened to usages of >> the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it was more than this. >> In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at >> letter frequency comparisons. >> >> I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban and may do my own, but I >> think this list >> >> iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy >> >> (Note the list on the wiki isn't too far off from this, but includes >> various example lists in its corpus which is not really a good sample of >> usage.) >> >> Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view >> here: http://simia.net/letters/. (Note that the Russian alphbet can be a >> bit misleading so refer to >> http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php) >> >> While I do not think the placement of vowels is so significant, it is >> interesting to note that no natural language appears to have more than four >> vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairly rare. `u` is almost >> always much further down the list. Also `i` is very rarely the number one >> letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almost certainly from the >> use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is clearly vowel heavy >> and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of the primary vowel >> sounds. >> >> The more significant difference is in the constants where almost >> invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every natural >> language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g` tend >> to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to Lojban >> with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it really stands >> out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural. >> >> Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it is important and an >> inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely spoken language for the >> simple reason that, in this regard, it is running contrary to many >> millennia of natural language evolution. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bdc0f56cf33ea0501767484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wonder what phoneme frequencies Ubykh language had.


2014-08-25 1= 9:51 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:

You are looking at letter fre= quencies, which is only a dim and distorted reflection of phone frequencies= , too dim and distorted to be worth wasting time over, I think.

Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are= less stable diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strike= s me as an optimal design feature for an engelang.

Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies r= enders a language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking ra= tional or empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for= it to be possible to cite counterexamples.

--And.

On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was somet= hing about the sound of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it = was just me not being familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and li= stened to usages of the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it = was more than this. In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then las= t night I looked at =C2=A0letter frequency comparisons.

I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban an= d may do my own, but I think this list

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy


The more significant difference is in the constants whe= re almost invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every = natural language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g= ` tend to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to = Lojban with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it real= ly stands out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.


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