Received: from mail-pa0-f58.google.com ([209.85.220.58]:33162) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XLyR7-0004Rl-8H for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:11 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f58.google.com with SMTP id fa1sf3242863pad.13 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=uRSpsM6ngnogLACHN7HTuUBXS+ghagJZf43cazW4enQ=; b=qQtXV8Wbp0m6TtPGZwiChH3Vyy11vbhWOBMgRN2S02rFHrOrRH4txPjNooUdyQ/1ij sbDySZpSmtrsALpIASUXMk9qDubWSaxylS8bwEyZjKTiF4QUkCks1CvSvGouS9HbTwik awfEFFdG1MatYBLdgiK7eKNwQNsq9d/P/ST2FX7kuDYlRvbezMhZubs82ZpmHY9O7nlm t6jV0r+MNtV6p1qRV2oYQGHALxrC3HTbUfdI9LhoAX5GuLoJ06VjAR4ODPCFTQxMr0Ub i5EJicQo9ek2+V2pcWkd+p7IpEXQDlYGIjLEQoGUqbVHRlNlwABsft2LLHXmgzRQygn9 v46A== X-Received: by 10.51.18.100 with SMTP id gl4mr401245igd.6.1408989122844; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.171.166 with SMTP id av6ls1491379igc.0.gmail; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.70.130.135 with SMTP id oe7mr14904077pdb.9.1408989122308; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22e.google.com (mail-qc0-x22e.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i4si153693qcm.0.2014.08.25.10.52.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e; Received: by mail-qc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id l6so14147363qcy.33 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.88.137 with SMTP id a9mr38751294qam.88.1408989122106; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8D08DAC0705BEED-E34-41DDD@webmail-d263.sysops.aol.com> <48cd77a8-350c-472c-b0f7-e1f527500707@googlegroups.com> <390cce56-e2e2-480e-8287-d58023e9ae6a@googlegroups.com> <2997de16-c428-4e61-ab16-0e593b58adfa@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:52:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Letter Frequency in lojban From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2bbc01d9cd4050177d80e X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2bbc01d9cd4050177d80e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 1) TR NS, You fail to take into account, as Gelki says Chinese (a large component of lojban, which has a very large occurrence of /c/ phonemees (see http://lingua.mtsu.edu/chinese-computing/phonology2004/phoneme.php where the only non-vowel that beats phonemes that are glossed in lojban as "c" or "c"-blends is /n/) 2) You also fail to take into account the hindi (which it doesn't appear is as frequent a phoneme, but sin't far down on the list) (see https://www.ldc.upenn.edu/sites/www.ldc.upenn.edu/files/agrawal2008.pdf) 3) Further, for many of the other languages on those lists (i.le. English, German, French) the /c/ is a bigraph, or trigraph ("sh", "sch", and "ch" respectively, and in Spanish "ch" is lojban "tc", allow it doesn't exist "freestanding") . In fact, in German, as that same website shows, "sch" is the second most common trigraph. ( http://simia.net/letters/trigrams.html ), being beaten out only by "der" --gejyspa On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, And Rosta wrote: > You are looking at letter frequencies, which is only a dim and distorted > reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and distorted to be worth wasting > time over, I think. > > Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are less stable > diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strikes me as an > optimal design feature for an engelang. > > Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies renders a > language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking rational or > empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for it to be > possible to cite counterexamples. > > --And. > On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" wrote: > >> Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was something about the sound >> of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it was just me not being >> familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and listened to usages of >> the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it was more than this. >> In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then last night I looked at >> letter frequency comparisons. >> >> I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban and may do my own, but I >> think this list >> >> iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy >> >> (Note the list on the wiki isn't too far off from this, but includes >> various example lists in its corpus which is not really a good sample of >> usage.) >> >> Now compare this to a wide swath of natural languages, which you can view >> here: http://simia.net/letters/. (Note that the Russian alphbet can be a >> bit misleading so refer to >> http://www.russianlessons.net/lessons/lesson1_main.php) >> >> While I do not think the placement of vowels is so significant, it is >> interesting to note that no natural language appears to have more than four >> vowels at the top of its list, and even that is fairly rare. `u` is almost >> always much further down the list. Also `i` is very rarely the number one >> letter, `e` and `a` dominate. Of course, that is almost certainly from the >> use of `.i` to start sentences. Regardless, Lojban is clearly vowel heavy >> and a lot rides on clearly distinguishing all five of the primary vowel >> sounds. >> >> The more significant difference is in the constants where almost >> invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every natural >> language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g` tend >> to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to Lojban >> with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it really stands >> out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural. >> >> Some may dismiss this out of hand, but I think it is important and an >> inescapable reality: Lojban can not become a widely spoken language for the >> simple reason that, in this regard, it is running contrary to many >> millennia of natural language evolution. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2bbc01d9cd4050177d80e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A01) =C2=A0TR NS, =C2=A0You fail to take into a= ccount, as Gelki says Chinese (a large component of lojban, which has a ver= y large occurrence of /c/ phonemees (see=C2=A0http://lingua.mtsu.edu/ch= inese-computing/phonology2004/phoneme.php where the only non-vowel that= beats phonemes that are glossed in lojban as "c" or "c"= ;-blends is /n/)

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 2) =C2=A0You also fail to take into account the hindi (which it doesn&#= 39;t appear is as frequent a phoneme, but sin't far down on the list) (= see=C2=A0https://www.ldc.upenn.edu/sites/www.ldc.upenn.edu/files/a= grawal2008.pdf)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 = =C2=A03) =C2=A0Further, for many of the other languages on those lists (i.l= e. English, German, French) the /c/ is a bigraph, or trigraph ("sh&quo= t;, "sch", and "ch" respectively, and in Spanish "= ch" is lojban "tc", allow it doesn't exist "freesta= nding") . =C2=A0In fact, in German, as that same website shows, "= sch" is the second most common trigraph. (=C2=A0http://simia.net/letters/trigrams.html ), = being beaten out only by "der"


=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM, And Rosta &= lt;and.rosta@gmail= .com> wrote:

You are looking at letter frequencies, whic= h is only a dim and distorted reflection of phone frequencies, too dim and = distorted to be worth wasting time over, I think.

Vowels are auditorily more distinct than consonants, but are= less stable diachronically. Having vowels as the frequentest phones strike= s me as an optimal design feature for an engelang.

Your idea that having atypical letter or phone frequencies r= enders a language incapable of being widely spoken strikes me as lacking ra= tional or empirical basis. Your thesis is not formulated clearly enough for= it to be possible to cite counterexamples.

--And.

On 25 Aug 2014 15:58, "TR NS" <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
Ever since I started learning Lojban, there was somet= hing about the sound of it that felt very unnatural. At first I thought it = was just me not being familiar with it. As I spent more time with it and li= stened to usages of the language on YouTube, it became clear to me that it = was more than this. In particular the letter `c` really stood out. Then las= t night I looked at =C2=A0letter frequency comparisons.

I've seen a couple of different lists for Lojban an= d may do my own, but I think this list

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 iaouel'ncmsdkrtpbjzgvfxy


The more significant difference is in the constants whe= re almost invariably the letters `n` `r` `s` `t` are near the top of every = natural language. Following them are frequently `l` and `d`. `m`, `k` or `g= ` tend to be in the middle but sometimes creep further up. Compare that to = Lojban with `l` `'` `n` `c` and `m` (l h n sh m) at the top and it real= ly stands out. Only `n` is in a position we could deem natural.


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