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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:57:30 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] application to join the LLG
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No, Quine is the logician of that era I did NOT know, though I studied with=
 several of his students, most notably for present purposes Goodman and Leo=
nard (the English language version of mereology).  (Missing Quine may not h=
ave been a mistake, since he did once write a paper that gave a brilliant e=
xposition and defense of a position which tied in nicely with his supposed =
nominalism but claimed -- in the paper and ever after -- that the had there=
in refuted the position completely.)=20
I have looked at guskant's piece with mixed feelings.  It does a good job a=
t pointing out how much of xorlo is still in limbo of one sort and another =
and of bringing up other problems.  The suggested solutions are less admira=
ble, though they may work.  The fact that the paper often uses (a radically=
 non-standard) Lojban as a metalanguage for Lojban presents a number of pro=
blems over and above the usual ones with self-metalanguages.  By and large,=
 the problems are ones best left to the ultimate formal language which Lojb=
an is to mirror rather than trying to solve them in Lojban itself.  In part=
icular, the individual-set (or whatever you want to call them)-mass divisio=
n is not important for the language and the mistreatment of collectivity-di=
stributivity in the language (though not, presumably in the logic) continue=
s.  I may change these judgments if I get around to a detailed study, but t=
hat is not likely soon, as getting things right seems more important
 than understanding the present situation or someone else's band-aids.


On Saturday, August 30, 2014 11:20 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.or=
g> wrote:
=20


On 8/29/2014 7:53 AM, guskant wrote:
> I would like to apply to join the LLG, only for making my commentary be
> official:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dgadri:+an+unofficial+com=
mentary+from+a+logical+point+of+view
>
> Whether my application is accepted or not, I still want LLG to consider
> inserting the commentary in the next version of CLL. This commentary
> contains a theoretical basis of Lojban, and should be essential for the
> Book.

Has John Clifford (pc) looked at this?  As the more-or-less official=20
logician for the Loglan/Lojban projects for a couple of decades if not=20
more, any mention of "logic" in connection with Lojban automatically=20
makes me want to defer to him.  (Others including you might be=20
qualified, but pc certainly is.)

Since I notice you mention Quine below, IIRC, pc knew Quine personally=20
and may have discussed Lojban with him.

lojbab

--=20
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--=20
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lojban" group.
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>No, Quine is the logician of that era I did NOT kn=
ow, though I studied with several of his students, most notably for present=
 purposes Goodman and Leonard (the English language version of mereology). =
&nbsp;(Missing Quine may not have been a mistake, since he did once write a=
 paper that gave a brilliant exposition and defense of a position which tie=
d in nicely with his supposed nominalism but claimed -- in the paper and ev=
er after -- that the had therein refuted the position completely.)&nbsp;</s=
pan></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-se=
rif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>I have looke=
d at guskant's piece with mixed feelings. &nbsp;It does a good job at
 pointing out how much of xorlo is still in limbo of one sort and another a=
nd of bringing up other problems. &nbsp;The suggested solutions are less ad=
mirable, though they may work. &nbsp;The fact that the paper often uses (a =
radically non-standard) Lojban as a metalanguage for Lojban presents a numb=
er of problems over and above the usual ones with self-metalanguages. &nbsp=
;By and large, the problems are ones best left to the ultimate formal langu=
age which Lojban is to mirror rather than trying to solve them in Lojban it=
self. &nbsp;In particular, the individual-set (or whatever you want to call=
 them)-mass division is not important for the language and the mistreatment=
 of collectivity-distributivity in the language (though not, presumably in =
the logic) continues. &nbsp;I may change these judgments if I get around to=
 a detailed study, but that is not likely soon, as getting things right see=
ms more important than understanding the present situation or
 someone else's band-aids.</span></div> <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><b=
r></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;"> <div style=
=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida=
 Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: Helveti=
caNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Satu=
rday, August 30, 2014 11:20 AM, Robert LeChevalier &lt;lojbab@lojban.org&gt=
; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_container">On 8/2=
9/2014 7:53 AM, guskant wrote:<br>&gt; I would like to apply to join the LL=
G, only for making my commentary be<br>&gt; official:<br>&gt; <a href=3D"ht=
tp://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dgadri:+an+unofficial+comment=
ary+from+a+logical+point+of+view"
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dgadri:+=
an+unofficial+commentary+from+a+logical+point+of+view</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt; W=
hether my application is accepted or not, I still want LLG to consider<br>&=
gt; inserting the commentary in the next version of CLL. This commentary<br=
>&gt; contains a theoretical basis of Lojban, and should be essential for t=
he<br>&gt; Book.<br><br>Has John Clifford (pc) looked at this?&nbsp; As the=
 more-or-less official <br>logician for the Loglan/Lojban projects for a co=
uple of decades if not <br>more, any mention of "logic" in connection with =
Lojban automatically <br>makes me want to defer to him.&nbsp; (Others inclu=
ding you might be <br>qualified, but pc certainly is.)<br><br>Since I notic=
e you mention Quine below, IIRC, pc knew Quine personally <br>and may have =
discussed Lojban with him.<br><br>lojbab<br><br>-- <br>You received this me=
ssage because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban"
 group.<br>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it=
, send an email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com=
." href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.">unsubscribe@googlegroups.c=
om.</a><br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban=
@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com.">lojban@googleg=
roups.com.</a><br>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
.<br>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.<br><br><br=
></div>  </div> </div>  </div> </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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