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[216.109.115.37]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im3si304575qcb.1.2014.09.01.10.48.05 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.37 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.37; Received: from [66.196.81.163] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2014 17:48:05 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.141] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2014 17:48:05 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2014 17:48:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 992321.61141.bm@omp1017.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 45613 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Sep 2014 17:48:04 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: DZ9jO20VM1n8fEm3lk4XaeAsJArijTKxcTmiEITWfMqlQmp otq6r6aeAjEzRggdyAK3h6i44wwI7xC8UZV9eAVchPjpumbWlTo_b.EqD1nC pYpNpiKQgZ0VBzRSaBzotLGssPwldSWjKeAy0f_aWkJiDFZa8Jnbev2Lnwbd wWt2I95Ty2o8rnqGHC.lomHuJHZR8aShTxrUJpX6kuP6elGyfcwOPaEoQcT. 1djpFPJo1El0JDY4kUEU6QSQyba345Qh75mO9ZZwC7XbpqlxUYPosjNuo8R_ vGZjGQZ9QBwYjfpo3oBMFy60cXic4LsxwXg_1oD8hEswReFa45OcuhnKCift SQsGzj1HZHv9um1MSxUbWnXRA.RFpll101jYT_qrzQ2.4EKnrWeBePnnUbBP gtPO2CyW1aFJQ_fJ.5hl2aRnJGGNaA2E13W2kirlmjNBeBdbaGXh3ivgLDs0 er26x8.U.4ePulr.Nde7zT_0C8UkR4BPrXWTTZUz5..WR6RmYtuBhd7EPEt. ojh8MS6MxAi6sDanbdNFdfm82jXaGuedIuMYwTf2cpdM4fWhO1dzGuPWaHzl aEs31JNyWqPAdBxvlj_ske6JBIi3GucPWpeVHEo6VpM68n8Q1b_8nY0.Z8AP pYDKt_yfAvlkAcu36YICIbew1npPeKarm1S5tGTYAsgBAHzsnRxjkCsIuIBo D4ewzXfdbtR7ktgkXRA7qa1LtYEyWMK9wHKByLXOUEeo- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 10:48:04 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcG9pbnQgaGVyZT8gIExpc3RpbmcgcHJvYmxlbXMgaXMgbm90IGEgZ29vZCB3YXkgdG8gc2VsbCBhIHByb2R1Y3QuICBCZXR0ZXIgdG8gZmluZCBhIHBvc2l0aXZlIHNwaW4gb24gdGhlc2UgKHRoZSB2YXVudGVkIGRlcml2YXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIGdpc211cyBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBkb25lIHdpdGggbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUgcG9pbnRzIGFib3ZlIC0tIGl0J3MgZXF1YWxseSBiYWQgZm9yIGV2ZXJ5b25lIGFuZCBpcyBiYXNlZCBvbiBzb21lIHNvcnQgb2YgY29ubmVjdGlvbiABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1409593684.10179.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:48:04 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.37 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1220152429-1409593684=:10179" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---910415156-1220152429-1409593684=:10179 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the point here? Listing problems is not a good way to sell a produ= ct. Better to find a positive spin on these (the vaunted derivation of the= gismus is the best that can be done with most of the points above -- it's = equally bad for everyone and is based on some sort of connection to real la= nguages). Rather than saying there is no machine translation, point out th= at it is the only language (well, you know what I mean) that has a real pos= sibility of a machine translation (actually, it would be nice to see a mach= ine program to convert Lojban into actual formulae of logic, the supposed u= nderlying goal, after all.) Rather than complaining about the number of fo= rms, stress the ease of figuring out new terms. Rather than complaining ab= out the density (not just for cmavo), stress the simple resolution of strin= gs (and the richness of vocabulary of various non-central sorts -- carefull= y avoiding the significant duplications at the core). Avoid aesthetics altogether (the oldest comparison is with Albanian of the Itali= an variety -- I don't know whether that is Gheg or Tosk, Apache makes the p= resent comparison feel not quite right since Lojban is not all that guttera= l or nasal). (What is a fart letter?) On Monday, September 1, 2014 8:06 AM, TR NS wrote: =20 On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of criticism of = lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Balanced criticism = actually makes languages more popular, so it's advisable to make such a lis= t. > > >Here are some thoughts: >1. gismu are hard to learn by everyone (as the algorithm mutilates the ini= tial form of words) >2. za'a/ga'a/zgana/zga is hard to remember (would be better to have one ro= ot instead of 4) >3. abundance of kafkylerfu >4. still no machine translation > > >ke'u, links needed, the list might need more items LOL. Maybe there are other conlang lists that would be better to ask? My thoughts: * Somewhat high phonological density --nearly every possible CV and CV'V cm= avo is used. * gismu has no taxonomic (a priori) design at all * sounds a bit like an Apache Polish American speaking atonal Chinese Ok. That last one is subjective, but my point is simply that it is unlikely= to rank high in a "best sounding" poll. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1220152429-1409593684=:10179 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is the point here?  Listing problems is = not a good way to sell a product.  Better to find a positive spin on t= hese (the vaunted derivation of the gismus is the best that can be done wit= h most of the points above -- it's equally bad for everyone and is based on= some sort of connection to real languages).  Rather than saying there= is no machine translation, point out that it is the only language (well, y= ou know what I mean) that has a real possibility of a machine translation (= actually, it would be nice to see a machine program to convert Lojban into = actual formulae of logic, the supposed underlying goal, after all.)  R= ather than complaining about the number of forms, stress the ease of figuri= ng out new terms.  Rather than complaining about the density (not just for cmavo), stress the simple resolution of strings (and the richness= of vocabulary of various non-central sorts -- carefully avoiding the signi= ficant duplications at the core).  Avoid aesthetics altogether (the ol= dest comparison is with Albanian of the Italian variety -- I don't know whe= ther that is Gheg or Tosk, Apache makes the present comparison feel not qui= te right since Lojban is not all that gutteral or nasal).
(What is a fart letter?)


<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Monday, September 1, 2014 8:06 AM, TR NS= <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:




On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC= -4, la gleki wrote:
the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list o= f criticism of lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Bala= nced criticism actually makes languages more popular, so it's advisable to = make such a list.

Here are some thoughts:
1. gismu ar= e hard to learn by everyone (as the algorithm mutilates the initial form of= words)
2. za'a/ga'a/zgana/zga is hard to remember (would be bett= er to have one root instead of 4)
3. abundance of kafkylerfu
4. still no machine translation

ke'u, links needed, the list might n= eed more items

L= OL. Maybe there are other conlang lists that would be better to ask?
<= div>
My thoughts:

* Somewhat high phonological density --nearly every possible CV= and CV'V cmavo is used.
* gismu has no taxono= mic (a priori) design at all
* sounds a bit like an Apache Polish= American speaking atonal Chinese

O= k. That last one is subjective, but my point is simply that it is unlikely = to rank high in a "best sounding" poll.

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
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