Received: from mail-ie0-f187.google.com ([209.85.223.187]:63651) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XOW6w-0002iX-6t for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:52 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f187.google.com with SMTP id rd18sf1424638iec.14 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lfesLr63ecyyNtM7Y/ikpoWbyCEbVJAGNWK/UPONRT8=; b=gfui4n+ChxgNtt8DwNTsVzCSfHbMxUMFQj0/h62DZ3yCx0bNgpGEaiA52Wq78jY8nj LjrApEQdJVftSBayRtHqY+lAqIVbNQsmmuPl6JCfUL5LS/EToDdNQga6RjAdvLPjr9B5 yogOH4bpvf/hyygJ6WE6R1gxGEn1lEpJtXO4yf/S89d0lMcgw4xnVRnCXL6wmLWkS9bB ezqtEBspTERlmbsMy4QMmt6D32u3yp1m1klWTFiyFkpGvVoTqTG9UhIyyN8SZUtTPT50 l5PgnhaJocb3HphI/dDQLfje1UapS5FwPDou3U0MMd6h7nr65GPyPG+qX4Dl1A3DLwbM AOdQ== X-Received: by 10.50.77.51 with SMTP id p19mr227902igw.17.1409595223745; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.128.42 with SMTP id nl10ls1995620igb.25.gmail; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.43.64.202 with SMTP id xj10mr1026174icb.0.1409595223436; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x235.google.com (mail-qg0-x235.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i4si316872qcm.0.2014.09.01.11.13.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235; Received: by mail-qg0-f53.google.com with SMTP id z107so5439205qgd.26 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.28.133 with SMTP id m5mr47551762qac.16.1409595223307; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:13:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <183b72a7-dc9a-44e6-91a5-2e17b6398cde@googlegroups.com> References: <183b72a7-dc9a-44e6-91a5-2e17b6398cde@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 14:13:43 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1db708ffe99050204f679 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c1db708ffe99050204f679 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few places Wuzzy didn't address, djac: > > d7. .i drani cu canci Perfection vanishes. Once again, missing a mandatory article c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu My discovery exceeds a > limit. That says your discoverer exceeds a limit. Once again, you would need "se facki" instead of "facki" Wuzzy: > > d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse > Quoted directly from the CLL: > =E2=80=9CThe cmavo =E2=80=98pe'a=E2=80=99 is the indicator of figurative = speech, indicating > that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than > literally:=E2=80=9D > I don=E2=80=99t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, impl= ying > that you use Lojban=E2=80=99s grammar as a metaphor. XD > I *think* =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D belongs after =E2=80=9Ccermurse=E2=80=9D= . But I really don=E2=80=99t know. > The CLL is not very clear on how to use =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D. pe'a is a UI, and indeed, works just like other UI, in that it modifies the previous word, and if that word is a terminator word of a structure, or the start of a structure, it modifies that entire structure. In other words, using pe'a at the beginning of a sentence is the same as using "a'o" at the beginning of a sentence. It applies to the whole sentence. The original line is fine as is. Stylisitically, I am wondering why both you, djac, and djeikon both chose to use "nelci" as a basis for "the cold never bothered me anyway", that is, reframing it from a non-dislike to a like, which is not equivalent. Why not something in the nature "lo za'i lenku na'e selfanza mi"? And speaking of style, djac, actually syllable count is exactly the wrong thing to keep in mind when you are translating. What you want is the same number of STRESSED syllables, and to have them appear in the right meter (but you can fudge unstressed syllables a bit). So, for example, your line "i zifcru .i zifcru" doesn't work, because the original is "let it GO, let it GO", and your translation is ".i ZIF cru, i ZIF cru", amphibrachic instead of anapestic. So, if you want to be punctilious, you've failed. So you might as well be freer with your self-opposed syllable-count constraint, which is chimeric anyway. My two cents, --gejyspa On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Anon wrote: > I decided to translate 'Let it Go' from 'Frozen' into Lojban; but given > that I'm doing this as a convenient way to utilize Lojban as I'm learning > it: I am sure I have made many mistakes. I have placed the Lojban > translation on the left with the corresponding English version of what I > think I said in Lojban on the right. If the two don't basically match up > line for line, than I have made a mistake. I have not translated the > attitudinals when they occur at the beginning of a bridi. At the end I ha= ve > some specific questions about things I am unsure of or suspect are wrong. > > This probably goes without saying, but I don't own any rights to Lojban > nor to the movie 'Frozen' or it's song 'Let it Go'. > > > a1. .aunai snime cu carvi le cmana Snow precipitates upon th= e > mountain. > a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta Here there is no path. > a3. .i mi sepli fe loi remna I am apart from people. > a4. .i mi simlu lo turni I appear to relate in som= e > way to the act of governing. > > a5. .i tcima cu simsa le mi menli sevzi The weather is similar in > property to the mind of myself. > a6. .i .ii mi fliba lo sezyfanta I fail at the control of > myself. > > a7. .i ko na curmi lo viska You! (talking to self) > Don't allow observance/seeing. > a8. .i ko vrude lo do natmi marde You! (talking to self) Ac= t > so that you can rightly be deemed virtuous by the moral standards of your > people group. > a9. .i ko mipri fi le tcadu You! (talking to self) > Keep a secret from the city. > a0. .i ri djuno The city knows. > > b1. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > b2. .i do na jitro fe do It is not true that you > (talking to self) control yourself. > b3. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > b4. .i ko do'o se ganlo You! (talking to self) > Make it so that access to you is denied to you and others. > b5. .i cusku na selxanka mi I do not worry about some > unspecified someone expressing some unspecified something. > b6. .i ko curmi ti You! (talking to self) > Allow this. > b7. .i .o'enai mi nelci lo lenku .o'enai I am fond of cold= . > > b8. .i minli darno lo sevzi darno cu gasnu The literal distance > brings about self-distance. > b9. .i lono jitro terpa cu pagre fi mi .u'e None of the controlling > fears enter the wondrous {.u'e} me. > b0. .i mi facki lo kakne mi I discover the ability of > myself. > c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu My discovery exceeds a > limit. > c2. .i .ia zi'o marde fi mi .ia non-existant are > morals applying to me. > c3. .einai Freedom. > > c4. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > c5. .i .uo mi brife joi tsani .uo I am the wind and the > sky. > c6. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > c7. .i mi na'e klaku I will not be crying. > c8. .i mi vi stali joi stodi I abide in one place and = I > am invariant. > c9. .i curmi snime The permitted snow. > > c0. .i benji lo mi vlipa lo loldi fu ti My power is transfered to > the ground via this. > d1. .i mi cupra lo spisa bisli lo pruxi sevzi I produce particulated > crystal by means of my spiritual self. > d2. .i lo pa bisli spoja pensi cu dunja One frozen exploding > thought congeals. > d3. .i mi noroi xruti lo sevzi lo purci I am never returning > myself to a state from the past. > > d4. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse Figuratively, I am the > dawn there yonder. > d6. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. > d7. .i drani cu canci Perfection vanishes. > d8. .i mi vi sanli lo cerni I stand here upon the day= . > d9. .i curmi snime The permitted snow. > d0. .i o'enai mi nelci lo lenku .o'enai I am fond of cold= . > > > a1: Should I use {lo} in place of {le} here? > a3: Is {loi} correct here? or should it be {lo} or {lo'i}? > a4: I tried working around {nolraitru}, but the syllabry wouldn't come > out, so {turni} it is. > a5: Is this even a valid grammatical construct? Can the words be used in > this way? > a7: I am made to understand that it is ok to use {ko} to command oneself > if the context makes this usage evident. > a8: Does this bridi communicate the correct general concept? > a0: Is {ri} used correctly here? > b1: Would {zifre} work better here? I'm on the fence about which to use. > b4: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here? > b5: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here? > b8: Can anyone think of a better way to phrase this? It needs to have 13 > syllables and it would be prefferable if the syllabry was fixed. Try > singing it; the stress is wrong. > b9: The {.u'e} is modifying {mi} to fix syllabry problems. Also, is {lono= } > used correctly here? > c2: Can {zi'o} be used in this way? > c3: The problem is that it technically modifies {mi}, but there is a paus= e > in the song, so it should be ok, right? > c5: Not sure if this sentence means what I think it means. > c7: Is {na'e} the correct cmavo to use here? > c8: Again, not sure if this sentence means what I think it means. > c9: An observative. > d1: I'm not sure about {pruxi sevzi}. Is there a better pair of gismu tha= t > would communicate the concept of 'soul'? > d3: Is {noroi} used correctly here? > d5: Is {pe'a} used correctly? Is {vu} used correctly? > > > Thanks you for your time, > > djac. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c1db708ffe99050204f679 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 A few places Wuzzy didn't address, djac: d7. .i drani cu= canci=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Perfection vanish= es.

=C2=A0 Once again, missing a man= datory article=C2=A0

c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My discovery= exceeds a limit.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 That says your discoverer exceeds a limit. =C2=A0Once again, you would = need "se facki" instead of "facki"

Wuzzy:
> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse
Quoted directly from the CLL:
=E2= =80=9CThe cmavo =E2=80=98pe'a=E2=80=99 is the indicator of figurative s= peech, indicating
that the previous word should be taken figuratively ra= ther than
literally:=E2=80=9D
I don=E2=80=99t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, implyi= ng
that you use Lojban=E2=80=99s grammar as a metaphor. XD
I *think* = =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D belongs after =E2=80=9Ccermurse=E2=80=9D. But I = really don=E2=80=99t know.
The CLL is not very clear on how to use =E2= =80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pe'a is a UI, and indeed, works just like other UI, i= n that it modifies the previous word, and if that word is a terminator word= of a structure, or the start of a structure, it modifies that entire struc= ture. =C2=A0In other words, using pe'a at the beginning of a sentence i= s the same as using "a'o" at the beginning of a sentence. =C2= =A0It applies to the whole sentence. =C2=A0The original line is fine as is.=


=C2=A0 Stylisitically, I am wondering why both you, djac, and djeikon b= oth chose to use "nelci" as a basis for "the cold never both= ered me anyway", that is, reframing it from a non-dislike to a like, w= hich is not equivalent. =C2=A0Why not something in the nature "lo za&#= 39;i lenku na'e selfanza mi"?

=C2=A0 And = speaking of style, djac, actually syllable count is exactly the wrong thing= to keep in mind when you are translating. =C2=A0What you want is the same = number of STRESSED syllables, and to have them appear in the right meter (b= ut you can fudge unstressed syllables a bit). =C2=A0So, for example, your l= ine "i zifcru .i zifcru" doesn't work, because the original i= s "let it GO, let it GO", and your translation is ".i ZIF cr= u, i ZIF cru", amphibrachic instead of anapestic. So, if you want to b= e punctilious, you've failed. So you might as well be freer with your s= elf-opposed syllable-count constraint, which is chimeric anyway.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0My two cents,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Anon <jtt96= @mail.com> wrote:

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