Received: from mail-we0-f184.google.com ([74.125.82.184]:37683) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XOWI2-0002lL-Nt for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:19 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f184.google.com with SMTP id q58sf608237wes.21 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=1//Oc0PZbd+OwlIVeAhqZVYxibV2Xk5FJJafLd0/gog=; b=ya2DuISjgihPpo+5VrV9w0WkMPnjvNgVBczDCZ84JtXF3sxaqnZXr6OJT+mEAeWIb/ Y5m1tGxeby068M8wn9qyl9C8eXmr6rBzqSpwZNtRt6e58eQVVS+X5rxIjS1dwsTV4Cuy 9nq+8JXVzzMkOzi7Q7bEh6+78M0ukrA5PeROE3rKu6j2vBFUeQtmhZ6zZrJy0RrBNqn/ NQzpSfpe0tZ211Lyac4icg2P5boYn+xNJeTbfOVd8DhzCMEYElPpx3GVagmC6+wl7pSR 7a8l3ffe54YZpJL/VXl5ngeYyTEHqeORLBpP0KD+NxNUL2E/0JQj46wB2m0OxeTRZHAc bK1g== X-Received: by 10.180.221.204 with SMTP id qg12mr78033wic.9.1409595911718; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.88.72 with SMTP id be8ls165152wib.5.canary; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.226 with SMTP id d2mr1997898wiy.5.1409595910973; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gj7si179583wib.3.2014.09.01.11.25.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::235; Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id e4so6593253wiv.2 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.20.148 with SMTP id n20mr5489683wie.22.1409595910851; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1409593684.10179.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> <1409593684.10179.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 22:25:10 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec53f345d8b14a50502051fae X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec53f345d8b14a50502051fae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Wikipedia always mentions critics to any movies, as for languages then to Esperanto. Good critics is also a selling point since otherwise people might get an impression that we are trying to ignore criticism. I forgot that the most well known criticism is xkcd's comic. May be we should mention it in the first place. it is easily disproved ofc. 2014-09-01 21:48 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com>: > What is the point here? Listing problems is not a good way to sell a > product. Better to find a positive spin on these (the vaunted derivation > of the gismus is the best that can be done with most of the points above -- > it's equally bad for everyone and is based on some sort of connection to > real languages). Rather than saying there is no machine translation, point > out that it is the only language (well, you know what I mean) that has a > real possibility of a machine translation (actually, it would be nice to > see a machine program to convert Lojban into actual formulae of logic, the > supposed underlying goal, after all.) Rather than complaining about the > number of forms, stress the ease of figuring out new terms. Rather than > complaining about the density (not just for cmavo), stress the simple > resolution of strings (and the richness of vocabulary of various > non-central sorts -- carefully avoiding the significant duplications at the > core). Avoid aesthetics altogether (the oldest comparison is with Albanian > of the Italian variety -- I don't know whether that is Gheg or Tosk, Apache > makes the present comparison feel not quite right since Lojban is not all > that gutteral or nasal). > (What is a fart letter?) > > > On Monday, September 1, 2014 8:06 AM, TR NS wrote: > > > > > On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > > the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of criticism of > lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Balanced criticism > actually makes languages more popular, so it's advisable to make such a > list. > > Here are some thoughts: > 1. gismu are hard to learn by everyone (as the algorithm mutilates the > initial form of words) > 2. za'a/ga'a/zgana/zga is hard to remember (would be better to have one > root instead of 4) > 3. abundance of kafkylerfu > 4. still no machine translation > > ke'u, links needed, the list might need more items > > > LOL. Maybe there are other conlang lists that would be better to ask? > > My thoughts: > > * Somewhat high phonological density --nearly every possible CV and CV'V > cmavo is used. > * gismu has no taxonomic (a priori) design at all > * sounds a bit like an Apache Polish American speaking atonal Chinese > > Ok. That last one is subjective, but my point is simply that it is > unlikely to rank high in a "best sounding" poll. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec53f345d8b14a50502051fae Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wikipedia always mentions critics to any movies, as for la= nguages then to Esperanto.
Good critics is also a selling point since o= therwise people might get an impression that we are trying to ignore critic= ism.

I forgot that the most well known criticism is xkcd'= ;s comic. May be we should mention it in the first place. it is easily disp= roved ofc.


2014-09-01 21:48 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <l= ojban@googlegroups.com>:
=
What is the point here? =C2=A0Listing problems is not a good way= to sell a product. =C2=A0Better to find a positive spin on these (the vaun= ted derivation of the gismus is the best that can be done with most of the = points above -- it's equally bad for everyone and is based on some sort= of connection to real languages). =C2=A0Rather than saying there is no mac= hine translation, point out that it is the only language (well, you know wh= at I mean) that has a real possibility of a machine translation (actually, = it would be nice to see a machine program to convert Lojban into actual for= mulae of logic, the supposed underlying goal, after all.) =C2=A0Rather than= complaining about the number of forms, stress the ease of figuring out new= terms. =C2=A0Rather than complaining about the density (not just for cmavo), stress the simple resolution of strings (and the richness= of vocabulary of various non-central sorts -- carefully avoiding the signi= ficant duplications at the core). =C2=A0Avoid aesthetics altogether (the ol= dest comparison is with Albanian of the Italian variety -- I don't know= whether that is Gheg or Tosk, Apache makes the present comparison feel not= quite right since Lojban is not all that gutteral or nasal).
(What is a fart letter?= )


On Monday, September 1, 2014 8:06 = AM, TR NS <tran= sfire@gmail.com> wrote:


=


On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 = AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
the wikipedia a= rticle about lojban might need a short list of criticism of lojban with lin= ks (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Balanced criticism actually makes = languages more popular, so it's advisable to make such a list.

Here are some thoughts:
1. gismu ar= e hard to learn by everyone (as the algorithm mutilates the initial form of= words)
2. za'a/ga'a/zgana/zga is hard to remember (would= be better to have one root instead of 4)
3. abundance of kafkylerfu
4. still no machine translation

ke'u, links needed, the list mig= ht need more items

LOL. Maybe there are other conlang lists that would be better to ask?
=

My thoughts:

* Somewhat high phonological density --nearly every possible C= V and CV'V cmavo is used.
* gismu has no taxonomic (a priori) design at all
* so= unds a bit like an Apache Polish American speaking atonal Chinese

Ok. That last one is subjective, but my poin= t is simply that it is unlikely to rank high in a "best sounding"= poll.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.= com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--bcaec53f345d8b14a50502051fae--