Received: from mail-pa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.220.56]:42132) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XOtfo-0003rM-3e for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:23:25 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id bj1sf1743660pad.21 for ; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/gtlNHsvTLSZXjXjy5piscr3ECkR9lkQ13HbLkr68Ss=; b=Hak49Q3hdo+nKZrCOIsHknxTNTwCdrlG43+a6Liny/pXmhLBD5nUDp3zyb25VnauMH 9gSSNtJzIzJH8wf1ggz6dOxAxS1377oR58uxkoEF9lkPBTKVQCQTgiQoNkWwCSTfTAIe uFcN2Bg15ifXnAGbcm8vKLDUMsaQ7qreXw9L7XAfssWdikMPibyffnebv+RGyv5WZfo+ BYkdcoQ+CG4gitStoNZULuvPCDEpBvGGzmZA6+I+GEua0e8NhcHH0OeJraxUMaWbyywV EuxsKQK57vAz6H4UlysJuHjRLwlUfDeY5zYnm4Mx4BiS4UK/c5wVmToye7ga1T/HRwIY 7tig== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/gtlNHsvTLSZXjXjy5piscr3ECkR9lkQ13HbLkr68Ss=; b=jQUAnYne+AFIf6003brYKZI34Yj9KVYkktctfl5zzdMrukscfEZySsxvMX8uR2n8dS N/wGfj6pm01NGbElvzHgptgljDNMa5DSnBmyp58xfbmQc7+ThryYZf9QeyEWyBH5mQES CzsgNNe/l2SYpn76gwXblQEe39F9EE2tMWqFbv3CSxFEA6fCPIUQBpNZkD+L+PSfq4Xx AGI6Mmh6YgY3IkMZ1y4ma+caKuMQLuwW0cc0eJ+pxnyB5fDDYEgQYJbAVwHaVtkb/Wrx vdVzpwCWnKbhmeqVc8INRljOXa3q3XPkaxZdlMgE4dlgW+uCXEYI6I4Be959IPTc0/jw aA2w== X-Received: by 10.140.93.181 with SMTP id d50mr816423qge.0.1409685797841; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.80.210 with SMTP id c76ls2560826qgd.56.gmail; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.25.162 with SMTP id 31mr83745qgt.9.1409685797620; Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: ianek To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <02d97254-7be0-4183-b3d6-5e7df250ff26@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20140901185644.GC5163@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] criticism of lojban needed MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: janek37@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_480_277174171.1409685797106" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_480_277174171.1409685797106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 By the way, in order to write about critism of Lojban on Wikipedia with accordance to their rules, you need a source to cite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:19:46 PM UTC+2, ianek wrote: > > My two major complaints: > > * it's hard to learn and remember all places of some gismu and lujvo, and > their order > * terminators are hard to parse by humans when they're nested in several > layers (vau kei ku vau vau) > > mu' mi'e ianek > > On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:10:24 AM UTC+2, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 2014-09-01 22:56 GMT+04:00 Robin Lee Powell : >> >>> On Mon, Sep 01, 2014 at 12:07:01PM +0400, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> > the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of >>> criticism of >>> > lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Balanced >>> criticism >>> > actually makes languages more popular, so it's advisable to make such a >>> > list. >>> > >>> > Here are some thoughts: >>> >>> My troubles actually speaking the thing on a daily basis: >>> >>> 1. The total lack of idiom >>> >>> 2. The incredible self-similarity of the gismu makes keeping them >>> straight extremely difficult for me in practice (i.e. when speaking >>> at full speed). >>> >>> 3. *WAY* too many c/s/j sounds; so many accidental tounge twisters >>> >> >> Tongue twisters can be applied to 2. as well, right? >> >> In general I think your three points are more important than other >> suggestions. >> Could you publish them on a wiki or on your website so that we can link >> to it from Wikipedia? >> >> >>> >>> -- >>> http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >>> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >>> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >>> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni >>> li'u >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_480_277174171.1409685797106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
By the way, in order to write about critism of Lojban on W= ikipedia with accordance to their rules, you need a source to cite.
http= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
http://en.wikipedia.org= /wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip= edia:No_original_research


On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:19:46 = PM UTC+2, ianek wrote:
My two major complaints:

* it's hard to learn and remember = all places of some gismu and lujvo, and their order
* terminators are ha= rd to parse by humans when they're nested in several layers (vau kei ku vau= vau)

mu' mi'e ianek

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:10:24 AM= UTC+2, la gleki wrote:



2014-09-01 22:56 GMT+04:00= Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org&g= t;:
On Mon, Sep 01, 2014 at 12:07:01PM +040= 0, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of criticis= m of
> lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). Balanced criti= cism
> actually makes languages more popular, so it's advisable to make such = a
> list.
>
> Here are some thoughts:

My troubles actually speaking the thing on a daily basis:

1.  The total lack of idiom

2.  The incredible self-similarity of the gismu makes keeping them
straight extremely difficult for me in practice (i.e. when speaking
at full speed).

3.  *WAY* too many c/s/j sounds; so many accidental tounge twisters

Tongue twisters can be applied to 2. as w= ell, right?

In general I think your three points a= re more important than other suggestions.
Could you publish them on a wiki or on your website so that we can lin= k to it from Wikipedia?
 

--
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li= 'u

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_480_277174171.1409685797106--