Received: from mail-ee0-f55.google.com ([74.125.83.55]:46263) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XP5Yr-0000gP-Lz for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:05:03 -0700 Received: by mail-ee0-f55.google.com with SMTP id e49sf823678eek.20 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SApFZ1vHffWRynd/pzd1GE3MAjRRPzboN2FxwdfLM+M=; b=wgsM3kQn5B+ZVQJysv9ccd34elzEBLYHlgiiiFKxzoA8WZNbImqnHQ1hGg1KGDXpns v92OKaaRWBNkdn0bb5+J7NCy+wy9Cd6RIivRvT47zycP4HH0CLzmHf42NPtI5UnoceK4 T2DzXh96/1Nwyt9eolg0+1OAsG6eSIg7KzUCYzqDeJRKjmGgi3+qCAHFq1tjWwGNxAZO A9Xp6KQFZUxFPJpl2jMsSRVIkA1rTtDpA1/oXBS2+xlKwAEQoVdINCMt0jLzk9aq3Erj o7ZQzDB+yPcfNlzeey+oHGdR6yJbIb/Jq37DKZtkcfDN9cFZegQuXVp00BwHOw+BcrB6 M3Zw== X-Received: by 10.152.116.48 with SMTP id jt16mr1173lab.38.1409731494805; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.45.9 with SMTP id i9ls628022lam.99.gmail; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.145.66 with SMTP id ss2mr8065lbb.14.1409731493955; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22c.google.com (mail-we0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j12si86767wie.2.2014.09.03.01.04.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c; Received: by mail-we0-f172.google.com with SMTP id q59so8171635wes.31 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.104.42 with SMTP id gb10mr33161846wib.65.1409731493844; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.208] ([2.31.155.145]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id mz16sm3024550wic.13.2014.09.03.01.04.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5406CBB8.20305@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 09:05:12 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120711 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed References: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of > criticism of lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). > Balanced criticism actually makes languages more popular, so it's > advisable to make such a list. Lojban's greatest success is this: 1. The founders of Lojban set themselves the absolutely overriding goal of = creating a version of Loglan that is stable and has a community of users. T= his goal was achieved. My main criticisms of Loglan/Lojban are: 2. Even if being a Whorfian experiment -- as Loglan not very credibly purpo= rted to be -- were of academic interest, the experiment design was so poor = as to render it an utter failure as an experiment. 3. Even relative to the compartively simple task of creating a logical lang= uage, Lojban does an exceptionally poor job. There are no formal rules that= map a sentence's phonological form to its logical form, and to a large but= very slowly diminishing extent there are no informal rules that do that ei= ther. There are ways to unambiguously encode logical forms in Lojban senten= ces, but these are clunky, verbose and unergonomic (and therefore largely u= nused); and anybody giving the problem twenty minutes' thought could have c= ome up with a better design than Lojban's. 4. The morphosyntax of Lojban is full of unnecessary baroque complexity -- = the proliferations of allomorphy, word-classes, constructions, function wor= ds could also be very drastically simplified. 5. Goal (1) is not a very interesting goal: having a stable language with a= community of users is interesting only if the language itself is worthy of= being a stable language with a community of users. Criticisms (2) and, in = my view, particularly (3) and (4) mean the language itself isn't worthy of = being a stable language with a community of users. That is, there are no re= asons why it is a Good Thing to learn and use Lojban; any attempt to persua= de people otherwise would in my view by deluded or dishonest. (A "Good Thin= g" is something more than just "whatever floats your boat".) I've written at length about (3) and (4) elsewhere, on Lojban and Conlang l= ists. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.