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[216.109.115.199]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i4si1698165qcm.0.2014.09.03.08.44.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Sep 2014 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.199 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.199; Received: from [66.196.81.159] by nm25.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2014 15:44:56 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.129] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2014 15:44:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1005.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2014 15:44:56 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 479850.16325.bm@omp1005.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 91252 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Sep 2014 15:44:56 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: vauSSc8VM1kMQQEjs8Yzy9zWRtC9jLHk00_CBPgzrYZ8NW1 bM1ie.7YWw7nJDz3_a9C..ixefiTBmOOa8NSrMUjKGlVEOeD4vp.TIgj8yaP WIS4n27NViJZgHLy3Bwg3U8U8py5OZuJN9l_lc4BBL_TA2IoYTaZLl3goe4j cwRRrC3dH6tx7dfwN_UaGHmgzTranSKdefrs4P9rxz7E4smMbtzNeml06ZWr tsImSl6Fb4.aHsjzMkrAh23QaA.npCuGKE2AwLITGazYHt1CbhbVEp8.RppB zVoU1roB9pG4.EYwzVaknxXt5JW0LF2ggnCOMop_yPG_Xfs1pqwjJx.qECiA 68ahU_AlcGN7tG.3Bt3.q6KAGfVeFRX0OUR5H49KkB16PzFGRBmsM3QTW53W 5bgKIQy3RN6o45Hl6y2A2x8QRFzD083hn.Rst6PgayMuu81RTE3wLQXr70H2 NvQ_D28l_10CEIvNQlMyZskw2l85fIL0EkE8L5WNxjhkHSiRZYoVQMvOdktz UEwpWCvhG1K3fEVxkGHy1rSx2p8eF6NP11dX4vCqvwu7b2MLOfoLlcNCfCzd mXa6sNUSY9R4UnT3v.6ywyij7lvhUwUNpKYUcVTjKkKLh4FbULKVH2sDO9Tl 8TusrQmnXhgTD2nsv.tBtgwlw3g5j3FeGKZDRK9XqmVlx3ykj71Nn8e8mS7p Wn439d12GRnJ.VjzSgArmJ3XQHwD91_8g4TzDUTl.BJv2Tw-- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 08:44:55 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,WXVwISAgSWYgeW91ciBnb2FsIGlzbid0IG1vbm9wYXJzaW5nLCB5b3UgaGF2ZSBubyByZWFzb24gdG8gYmUgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiBMb2piYW4vTG9nbGFuLiAgSWYgeW91ciBnb2FsIGlzIG1vbm9wYXJzaW5nLCBMb2phbi9Mb2dsYW4gbWF5IGJlIHRoZSBvbmx5IGxpdmluZyBvcHRpb24gYnV0IGl0cyBzdWNjZXNzIGlzIG5vdCBwcm92ZW4gYW5kLCBldmVuIGlmIGl0IHdlcmUsIGl0IGRvZXMganVzdCBhYm91dCBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGluIHRoZSB3b3JzdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB3YXkuCgpMZXQncyBzZWUgaG93IHQBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> <5406CBB8.20305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1409759095.40258.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 08:44:55 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <5406CBB8.20305@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.199 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="431184223-975286218-1409759095=:40258" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --431184223-975286218-1409759095=:40258 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup! If your goal isn't monoparsing, you have no reason to be interested i= n Lojban/Loglan. If your goal is monoparsing, Lojan/Loglan may be the only= living option but its success is not proven and, even if it were, it does = just about everything in the worst possible way. Let's see how that line of objections, rather than ones to the cosmetics, c= an be met and turned into a positive discussion of Lojban. On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 3:04 AM, And Rosta wr= ote: =20 On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > the wikipedia article about lojban might need a short list of > criticism of lojban with links (e.g. to posts in this mailing list). > Balanced criticism actually makes languages more popular, so it's > advisable to make such a list. Lojban's greatest success is this: 1. The founders of Lojban set themselves the absolutely overriding goal of = creating a version of Loglan that is stable and has a community of users. T= his goal was achieved. My main criticisms of Loglan/Lojban are: 2. Even if being a Whorfian experiment -- as Loglan not very credibly purpo= rted to be -- were of academic interest, the experiment design was so poor = as to render it an utter failure as an experiment. 3. Even relative to the compartively simple task of creating a logical lang= uage, Lojban does an exceptionally poor job. There are no formal rules that= map a sentence's phonological form to its logical form, and to a large but= very slowly diminishing extent there are no informal rules that do that ei= ther. There are ways to unambiguously encode logical forms in Lojban senten= ces, but these are clunky, verbose and unergonomic (and therefore largely u= nused); and anybody giving the problem twenty minutes' thought could have c= ome up with a better design than Lojban's. 4. The morphosyntax of Lojban is full of unnecessary baroque complexity -- = the proliferations of allomorphy, word-classes, constructions, function wor= ds could also be very drastically simplified. 5. Goal (1) is not a very interesting goal: having a stable language with a= community of users is interesting only if the language itself is worthy of= being a stable language with a community of users. Criticisms (2) and, in = my view, particularly (3) and (4) mean the language itself isn't worthy of = being a stable language with a community of users. That is, there are no re= asons why it is a Good Thing to learn and use Lojban; any attempt to persua= de people otherwise would in my view by deluded or dishonest. (A "Good Thin= g" is something more than just "whatever floats your boat".) I've written at length about (3) and (4) elsewhere, on Lojban and Conlang l= ists. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --431184223-975286218-1409759095=:40258 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yup!  If your goal isn't monoparsing, you hav= e no reason to be interested in Lojban/Loglan.  If your goal is monopa= rsing, Lojan/Loglan may be the only living option but its success is not pr= oven and, even if it were, it does just about everything in the worst possi= ble way.
<= br>
Let's = see how that line of objections, rather than ones to the cosmetics, can be met and turned into a positive discussion of Lojban.


On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 3:04 AM, And Rosta <an= d.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


On Monday, September 1, 2014 4:07:03 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote= :
> the wikipedia article about lojban might need a sh= ort list of
> criticism of lojban with links (e.g. to = posts in this mailing list).
> Balanced criticism actu= ally makes languages more popular, so it's
> advisable= to make such a list.

Lojban's greatest success is th= is:

1. The founders of Lojban set them= selves the absolutely overriding goal of creating a version of Loglan that = is stable and has a community of users. This goal was achieved.

My main criticisms of Loglan/Lojban are:

2. Even if being a Whorfian experiment -- as L= oglan not very credibly purported to be -- were of academic interest, the e= xperiment design was so poor as to render it an utter failure as an experim= ent.

3. Even relative to the compartiv= ely simple task of creating a logical language, Lojban does an exceptionall= y poor job. There are no formal rules that map a sentence's phonological fo= rm to its logical form, and to a large but very slowly diminishing extent t= here are no informal rules that do that either. There are ways to unambiguo= usly encode logical forms in Lojban sentences, but these are clunky, verbose and unerg= onomic (and therefore largely unused); and anybody giving the problem twent= y minutes' thought could have come up with a better design than Lojban's.
4. The morphosyntax of Lojban is full o= f unnecessary baroque complexity -- the proliferations of allomorphy, word-= classes, constructions, function words could also be very drastically simpl= ified.

5. Goal (1) is not a very inter= esting goal: having a stable language with a community of users is interest= ing only if the language itself is worthy of being a stable language with a= community of users. Criticisms (2) and, in my view, particularly (3) and (= 4) mean the language itself isn't worthy of being a stable language with a = community of users. That is, there are no reasons why it is a Good Thing to= learn and use Lojban; any attempt to persuade people otherwise would in my view by deluded or dishonest. (A "Good Thing" is something more than just = "whatever floats your boat".)

I've wri= tten at length about (3) and (4) elsewhere, on Lojban and Conlang lists.
--And.


--
Yo= u received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lo= jban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop rece= iving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to thi= s group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.=
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--431184223-975286218-1409759095=:40258--