Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.205 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.205;
References: <CAO7bV+gzuMQacgo6dwYAhyUd1NEVv-6Up2uC=j=XFGvx+bU+QA@mail.gmail.com> <5eccb6c5-6904-4b30-a49c-455e9bb1d32a@googlegroups.com> <5406CBB8.20305@gmail.com> <mfl51o00b56Cr6M01fl6jM> <54073EBE.9080104@lojban.org>
Message-ID: <1409763827.75905.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 10:03:47 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: criticism of lojban needed
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <54073EBE.9080104@lojban.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-230673657-1409763827=:75905"
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--564456775-230673657-1409763827=:75905
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are other reasons advertised to be interested in Lojban and some of t=
hose reasons have a certain legitmacy.  The point here is just that, for an=
y reason other than monoparsing, there are other conlangs that answer to th=
at interest and are much less complex than Lojban, so that interest could b=
e pursued more efficiently elsewhere.  That is a mere practical point and d=
oes not answer to the emotional or aesthetic appeal of Lojban, so the claim=
 is stated a little to broadly (but it was a summary, after all). =20

I suppose the first objection to your way of dealing with objections is to =
point out that Lojban's academic (or any other for that matter) goals have =
never been explicitly spelled out (and, indeed, attempts to do so have been=
 explicitly rejected), so learnability and aesthetic considerations (what w=
ould those be, anyhow) may very well be among those goals, even major ones,=
 whatever others might think.  However, I will stipulate that one academic =
goal is orthoparsing -- monoparsing that always gives the right parse.  Loj=
ban/Logan is unique among widely discussed conlangs in having this goal (an=
d most alternatives are overtly descended from some phase in L/L history). =
 It claims to have achieved monoparsing but the next step has never been ex=
plored or even well-formulated, that the correct parse accurately reflects =
the intended proposition.  Proving that would presumably take the form of a=
n algorithm for converting a parse into a unique formula.  Beyond
 that, it is not clear what to put as goals: SWH is largely defunct (or red=
uced to the most rivial of claims, about which L/L clearly has nothing to s=
ay).  With it, both cultural neutrality and improving your thinking go as t=
argets, except in some diffuse way that would apply equally to learning Chi=
nese or differential equations.    As for learnability, there has never bee=
n an actual test of the claims about the complicated system of primitive te=
rms and the anecdotal evidence is at best a mixed bag (every positive match=
ed with an equal negative).  For the rest, the sheer bulk of particles of m=
inutely different meanings (and in a packed word space) bodes ill for ease =
of learning (the lack of competent text books has also always been a proble=
m).  Aesthetics is just too sloppy to be worth talking about; subjective pr=
oblems are personal and, if someone doesn't like something, he can just avo=
id it.


On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 11:15 AM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and F=
ounder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
=20


On 9/3/2014 11:44 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote:
> Yup!  If your goal isn't monoparsing, you have no reason to be
> interested in Lojban/Loglan.  If your goal is monoparsing, Lojan/Loglan
> may be the only living option but its success is not proven and, even if
> it were, it does just about everything in the worst possible way.
>
> Let's see how that line of objections, rather than ones to the
> cosmetics, can be met and turned into a positive discussion of Lojban.

I think that there are a few more reasons, though most of them are not=20
phrased in academic terms. Certainly, people have BECOME interested in=20
Lojban for other reasons and have found their interest to be sustained,=20
even as they learned that Lojban isn't hardly a perfect design.

Objections to Lojban should be separated into critiques of the language=20
design as a fulfillment of its academic goals, and critiques of the=20
design pertaining to its learnability and/or aesthetics.

Since the goal is to produce something that can be linked to by a wiki=20
article, I suggest creating a page in the Lojban wiki that addresses=20
these criticisms and organizes them in a list (with rebuttals as=20
appropriate).

lojbab

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--564456775-230673657-1409763827=:75905
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>There are other reasons advertised to be intereste=
d in Lojban and some of those reasons have a certain legitmacy. &nbsp;The p=
oint here is just that, for any reason other than monoparsing, there are ot=
her conlangs that answer to that interest and are much less complex than Lo=
jban, so that interest could be pursued more efficiently elsewhere. &nbsp;T=
hat is a mere practical point and does not answer to the emotional or aesth=
etic appeal of Lojban, so the claim is stated a little to broadly (but it w=
as a summary, after all). &nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helveti=
ca, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-colo=
r: transparent;"><span><br></span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
 font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: t=
ransparent;"><span>I suppose the first objection to your way of dealing wit=
h objections is to point out that Lojban's academic (or any other for that =
matter) goals have never been explicitly spelled out (and, indeed, attempts=
 to do so have been explicitly rejected), so learnability and aesthetic con=
siderations (what would those be, anyhow) may very well be among those goal=
s, even major ones, whatever others might think. &nbsp;However, I will stip=
ulate that one academic goal is orthoparsing -- monoparsing that always giv=
es the right parse. &nbsp;Lojban/Logan is unique among widely discussed con=
langs in having this goal (and most alternatives are overtly descended from=
 some phase in L/L history). &nbsp;It claims to have achieved monoparsing b=
ut the next step has never been explored or even well-formulated,
 that the correct parse accurately reflects the intended proposition. &nbsp=
;Proving that would presumably take the form of an algorithm for converting=
 a parse into a unique formula. &nbsp;Beyond that, it is not clear what to =
put as goals: SWH is largely defunct (or reduced to the most rivial of clai=
ms, about which L/L clearly has nothing to say). &nbsp;With it, both cultur=
al neutrality and improving your thinking go as targets, except in some dif=
fuse way that would apply equally to learning Chinese or differential equat=
ions. &nbsp; &nbsp;As for learnability, there has never been an actual test=
 of the claims about the complicated system of primitive terms and the anec=
dotal evidence is at best a mixed bag (every positive matched with an equal=
 negative). &nbsp;For the rest, the sheer bulk of particles of minutely dif=
ferent meanings (and in a packed word space) bodes ill for ease of learning=
 (the lack of competent text books has also always been a problem).
 &nbsp;Aesthetics is just too sloppy to be worth talking about; subjective =
problems are personal and, if someone doesn't like something, he can just a=
void it.</span></div> <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=
=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: Hel=
veticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif=
; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica N=
eue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <di=
v dir=3D"ltr"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Wednesday, September 3, =
2014 11:15 AM, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" &lt;lojbab@lo=
jban.org&gt; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_contai=
ner">On 9/3/2014 11:44 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote:<br>&gt; Yup!=
&nbsp; If your goal isn't monoparsing, you have no reason to be<br>&gt; int=
erested in Lojban/Loglan.&nbsp; If your goal is monoparsing, Lojan/Loglan<b=
r>&gt; may
 be the only living option but its success is not proven and, even if<br>&g=
t; it were, it does just about everything in the worst possible way.<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt; Let's see how that line of objections, rather than ones to the<br=
>&gt; cosmetics, can be met and turned into a positive discussion of Lojban=
.<br><br>I think that there are a few more reasons, though most of them are=
 not <br>phrased in academic terms. Certainly, people have BECOME intereste=
d in <br>Lojban for other reasons and have found their interest to be susta=
ined, <br>even as they learned that Lojban isn't hardly a perfect design.<b=
r><br>Objections to Lojban should be separated into critiques of the langua=
ge <br>design as a fulfillment of its academic goals, and critiques of the =
<br>design pertaining to its learnability and/or aesthetics.<br><br>Since t=
he goal is to produce something that can be linked to by a wiki <br>article=
, I suggest creating a page in the Lojban wiki that addresses
 <br>these criticisms and organizes them in a list (with rebuttals as <br>a=
ppropriate).<br><br>lojbab<br><br>-- <br>You received this message because =
you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe f=
rom this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<=
a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:unsubscri=
be@googlegroups.com.">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.</a><br>To post to this =
group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com." href=3D=
"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com.">lojban@googlegroups.com.</a><br>Visit thi=
s group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>For more options, visi=
t https://groups.google.com/d/optout.<br><br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </d=
iv> </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--564456775-230673657-1409763827=:75905--