Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <2739f31b-5a6f-42ad-bcf4-036b42bcf64a@googlegroups.com>
References: <d2afd5ff-9d7c-4edf-9b53-9058b4df7a53@googlegroups.com>
	<CAO7bV+iFsm+HyzEK0kFewMh3CAGh-v54NpvwDbxQJBWXjjYM_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<2739f31b-5a6f-42ad-bcf4-036b42bcf64a@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 22:26:13 +0400
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+gX8efEjoVi9k4zRAMmJijmL3EQzQZ-qDKbRko-eAdJaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru?
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc0f56d04d890502417ce4
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--047d7bdc0f56d04d890502417ce4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

2014-09-04 22:02 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 11:46:23 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-09-04 18:58 GMT+04:00 TR NS <tran...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Was wondering why "left-grouping rule" was chosen as the default for
>>> tanru?
>>>
>>> I ran though random examples of using two adjectives in my head and they
>>> are almost always right-grouping. "big red truck", "bright yellow star",
>>> "little lost ant"
>>>
>> this is left grouping with both seltau made equal:
>> lo barda je cunre karce
>> lo carmi je plexu tarci
>> lo cmalu je farcri manti
>>
>>
> Cool. Thanks for the translations.
>
> That helps clarify my point though too. Seems like the typical case will
> always require an extra grouping cmavo, e.g. `je` or `bo` in order to be
> technically correct. If the default were right-grouping these wouldn't be
> needed. I have a feeling that a lot of time this gets overlooked and the
> `je` or `bo`, or what have you, gets left out even though the meaning isn't
> really right. But most of time it won't get noticed, because, for instance
> if I said to you "lo barda cunre karce" you are probably just going to
> assume I meant "lo barda je cunre karce" or "lo barda cunre bo karce"
> without even giving it any thought.
>

xunre, not cunre, sorry for the previous mistype.

Did you see the phrase {lo melbi cmalu nixli ckule}?
It means in a "pretty way small girls' school". This is a clear case of
string modifiers one after another.

In right grouping it'd be the same. Lojban uses {co} to change the
direction:

{lo ckule co nixli co cmalu co melbi}

For previous examples:

{lo karce co barda je xunre}.


As you can see you still cannot delete {je}.
One might imagine a language where {je} would be omitted, however, I wonder
why {je}, not {jo'u} or {joi} would be chosen for that.

>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--047d7bdc0f56d04d890502417ce4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-09-04 22:02 GMT+04:00 TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Thursday, Septem=
ber 4, 2014 11:46:23 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2014-09-04 18:58 G=
MT+04:00 TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>tran...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<d=
iv class=3D""><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr">Was wondering why &quot;left-grouping rule&quot; was chose=
n as the default for tanru?=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I ran though random ex=
amples of using two adjectives in my head and they are almost always right-=
grouping. &quot;big red truck&quot;, &quot;bright yellow star&quot;, &quot;=
little lost ant&quot;</div>

</div></blockquote><div>this is left grouping with both seltau made equal:<=
/div><div>lo barda je cunre karce</div><div>lo carmi je plexu tarci</div><d=
iv>lo cmalu je farcri manti</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Cool. Thanks for the translations.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>That helps clarify my point though too. Seems like the ty=
pical case will always require an extra grouping cmavo, e.g. `je` or `bo` i=
n order to be technically correct. If the default were right-grouping these=
 wouldn&#39;t be needed. I have a feeling that a lot of time this gets over=
looked and the `je` or `bo`, or what have you, gets left out even though th=
e meaning isn&#39;t really right. But most of time it won&#39;t get noticed=
, because, for instance if I said to you &quot;lo barda cunre karce&quot; y=
ou are probably just going to assume I meant &quot;lo barda je cunre karce&=
quot; or &quot;lo barda cunre bo karce&quot; without even giving it any tho=
ught.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>xunre, not cunre, sorry for the prev=
ious mistype.</div><div><br></div><div>Did you see the phrase {lo melbi cma=
lu nixli ckule}?</div><div>It means in a &quot;pretty way small girls&#39; =
school&quot;. This is a clear case of string modifiers one after another.</=
div>
<div><br></div><div>In right grouping it&#39;d be the same. Lojban uses {co=
} to change the direction:</div><div><br></div><div>{lo ckule co nixli co c=
malu co melbi}</div><div><br></div><div>For previous examples:</div><div>
<br></div><div>{lo karce co barda je xunre}.</div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>As you can see you still cannot delete {je}.</div><div>One might =
imagine a language where {je} would be omitted, however, I wonder why {je},=
 not {jo&#39;u} or {joi} would be chosen for that.</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--047d7bdc0f56d04d890502417ce4--