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Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 16:37:30 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru?
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  Ah, but the paper that you cite is about Adjectival hierarchies
(something I've noticed decades ago, and also wondered about, ever since I
saw a sign written by someone who was obviously not a native speaker
because of the misordering of adjectives.  Glad to see stuff written about
it).  This is not about grouping at all.  Quite the contrary.  The examples
given in the paper are, almost without exception, about the order of
adjectives that are all at the same level (that is, modifying the noun),
and not their grouping. e.g. "a small green bottle" (lo cmalu je crino
botpi) and "a vegetarian Russian lawyer" (lo nalre'ucti je rusko fladju)
 What associative grouping is really talking about is precisely the
examples I did give, which you dismissed as words that we might hyphenate
or adverbs.  But that is precisely the point.  Because remember, since we
don't have in lojban the traditional parts of speech  of noun, verb,
adjective, and adverb, what brivla  function like can only be determined by
their position in a bridi or clause.  "broda brode" in isolation is the
equivalent of either a noun adjunct or an adjective modifying a noun, or an
adverbs modifying a verb (which in English is usually the other order) .
"broda brode brodi", otoh, is either adverb adjective noun (dull gray
house, frighteningly fast ride), (adjective/noun adjunct-noun)  noun
(stretch limo driver) or adverb adverb verb (very surprisingly caught), the
latter construction not appearing often in English, and in those
constructions, English is left grouping just like lojban.  Contrariwise,
constructionslike the ones you cited, adjective adjective noun, don't
really group at all (usually).  They are "adj. AND adj. noun". (otoh, verb
adverb adverb constructions in English, DO right group (run really quickly)

                        --gejyspa


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:50 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, September 4, 2014 3:03:09 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote:
>>
>>   There are plenty of left groupings in English:
>>
>>   newspaper editor strike
>>   electric light socket
>>   bass guitar player
>>   first base umpire
>>   television series director
>>   very fast typist
>>
>>   etc etc
>>   The fact that you happened to picked examples that right grouping (and
>> btw, bright yellow star is LEFT grouping, not right.  The color is bright
>> yellow)
>> is jsut from your own biases....  :-)
>>             --gejyspa,
>>
>>
> I don't think so. First "bright yellow star" could mean "bright yellow"
> but more likely it means "bright star that is yellow". I think there is
> something important to notice about most of your examples. The first two
> words are very close to something we might hyphenate. ("very fast" is the
> clear exception, but very is an adverb.) And that goes to my point. It
> makes more sense if there where a word for this hyphenation. And we kind of
> already have that actually in `bo`. In these cases it would make more sense
> to have to use `bo` than it does for my cases.
>
> Also this isn't just my bias. Although it is hard for me to speak for any
> language beyond English, but there are known patterns from which I am
> drawing my opinion. See http://www.lingref.com/cpp/wccfl/25/paper1473.pdf
> for example.
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Ah, but the paper that you cite is about Adjectival=
 hierarchies (something I&#39;ve noticed decades ago, and also wondered abo=
ut, ever since I saw a sign written by someone who was obviously not a nati=
ve speaker because of the misordering of adjectives. =C2=A0Glad to see stuf=
f written about it). =C2=A0This is not about grouping at all. =C2=A0Quite t=
he contrary. =C2=A0The examples given in the paper are, almost without exce=
ption, about the order of adjectives that are all at the same level (that i=
s, modifying the noun), and not their grouping. e.g. &quot;a small green bo=
ttle&quot; (lo cmalu je crino botpi) and &quot;a vegetarian Russian lawyer&=
quot; (lo nalre&#39;ucti je rusko fladju) =C2=A0What associative grouping i=
s really talking about is precisely the examples I did give, which you dism=
issed as words that we might hyphenate or adverbs. =C2=A0But that is precis=
ely the point. =C2=A0Because remember, since we don&#39;t have in lojban th=
e traditional parts of speech =C2=A0of noun, verb, adjective, and adverb, w=
hat brivla =C2=A0function like can only be determined by their position in =
a bridi or clause. =C2=A0&quot;broda brode&quot; in isolation is the equiva=
lent of either a noun adjunct or an adjective modifying a noun, or an adver=
bs modifying a verb (which in English is usually the other order) . &quot;b=
roda brode brodi&quot;, otoh, is either adverb adjective noun (dull gray ho=
use, frighteningly fast ride), (adjective/noun adjunct-noun) =C2=A0noun (st=
retch limo driver) or adverb adverb verb (very surprisingly caught), the la=
tter construction not appearing often in English, and in those construction=
s, English is left grouping just like lojban. =C2=A0Contrariwise, construct=
ionslike the ones you cited, adjective adjective noun, don&#39;t really gro=
up at all (usually). =C2=A0They are &quot;adj. AND adj. noun&quot;. (otoh, =
verb adverb adverb constructions in English, DO right group (run really qui=
ckly)<div>
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:50=
 PM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"">On Thursday=
, September 4, 2014 3:03:09 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 There are plenty of left groupings in English:<div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 newspaper editor strike</div><div>=C2=A0 electric lig=
ht socket</div><div>=C2=A0 bass guitar player</div><div>=C2=A0 first base u=
mpire</div><div>=C2=A0 television series director</div>

<div>=C2=A0 very fast typist</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 etc etc</div><=
div>=C2=A0 The fact that you happened to picked examples that right groupin=
g (and btw, bright yellow star is LEFT grouping, not right. =C2=A0The color=
 is bright yellow)</div>

<div>is jsut from your own biases.... =C2=A0:-)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa,=C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div></block=
quote><div><br></div></div><div>I=C2=A0don&#39;t think so. First &quot;brig=
ht yellow star&quot; could mean &quot;bright yellow&quot; but more likely i=
t means &quot;bright star that is yellow&quot;. I think there is something =
important to notice about most of your examples. The first two words are ve=
ry close to something we might hyphenate. (&quot;very fast&quot; is the cle=
ar exception, but very is an adverb.) And that goes to my point. It makes m=
ore sense if there where a word for this hyphenation. And we kind of alread=
y have that actually in `bo`. In these cases it would make more sense to ha=
ve to use `bo` than it does for my cases.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also this isn&#39;t just my bias. Although it is hard f=
or me to speak for any language beyond English, but there are known pattern=
s from which I am drawing my opinion. See=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.lingre=
f.com/cpp/wccfl/25/paper1473.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lingref.com/=
cpp/wccfl/25/paper1473.pdf</a> for example.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"=
>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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