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[216.109.114.98]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i4si41312qcm.0.2014.09.04.13.44.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.98 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.98; Received: from [66.196.81.161] by nm3.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2014 20:44:38 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.131] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2014 20:44:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2014 20:44:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 424845.98634.bm@omp1007.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 25710 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Sep 2014 20:44:37 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: hoDA4bwVM1n96K2Lb4eThx6DujjLaK5HMxZXq_qI.HCre_0 NXuGpsXp5lVdJ2Zu6.Cwxb1jsgo2UN5PV16yk2YWBAc2RdpGmO4Pqwsf94Fx W6D4Ya3LDAySHMmgZA90AbA6gAqS6XOLwcFX51mDoeaTr1Wa8ZoTZ.jmtfS5 WjcSpxEZrBt.pd0NmZ6M_OZGN7i4aCby5PwIoy1DPftRPzj.UF9cC4IGUtsN dkYuGXkbsS0v71PD2q9gbIIQBBZkW_WrwAbt_bp3xmd0jp6bpGgrHGjx3qoC kh9KjYxgRT8yc5.RDQfEWrL8m8x8cX1zQ9RpxDLK0Es7UbrljyfJCO3xL5Q1 pbKOuO_xNR3nrygx0TtQvYBmk.eBkp.nwFvL1uiq14VVp3vuwnVGPaEEmqem NhXAQDu.KZBHACggkkQV0cN1uks11Mi3l7U.Y.dd.aLVYKUfOgUXOSc2NhLC oAr9ZnzhtU3Ku2QJ6zm4DjkbexM82R67k4LaNiPVwsLi3K21gxD99vHv5RFv A0vTmTa1pTTZCpEm5j.YJ8JWE75B6tt6g0_KSWJLj.S3ojQ0Y0PCuoNQsVks sVNA3_A_Y4uy69P2uoUfZ25fzKWvug6RVgpGTOZpR4VCUB02iPS0ZEoaG0pj k673X6LWJOSPQqqLuaD0PlmFP_6hJKzhzbViTkOSfL0ShoWmo4PxERpjco_5 d1ww_w4xXVCUxFXgwZiWM7F8rCxZxfX4PABGicvz9BxA- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:44:37 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,InByZXR0eSBzbWFsbCIgPSAic21hbGxlciB0aGFuIGF2ZXJhZ2UgYnV0IG5vdCB5ZXQgZXh0cmVtZSIuICBKQ0Igd2FzIG1ha2luZyBhIGpva2UsIHRob3VnaCB3aXRoIGEgcG9pbnQuICBPZiBjb3Vyc2UsICdiaWx0aSBjbWFsdScgZG9lc24ndCBtZWFuIHRoYXQgaW4gTG9nbGFuIGJ1dCB0aGUgZ3JvdXBpbmcgaXMgaW50ZWxsaWdpYmxlIC0tIHdoeSBjYW4ndCBhIGNlcnRhaW4gZGVncmVlIG9mIHNtYWxsbmVzcyBiZSBiZWF1dGlmdWw_ICBXaHksIGZvciB0aGF0IG1hdHRlciwgY2FuJ3QgYSBzY2hvb2wgYmUBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <2739f31b-5a6f-42ad-bcf4-036b42bcf64a@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1409863477.95822.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 13:44:37 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru? To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.98 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-482694697-2086562942-1409863477=:95822" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ---482694697-2086562942-1409863477=:95822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "pretty small" =3D "smaller than average but not yet extreme". JCB was mak= ing a joke, though with a point. Of course, 'bilti cmalu' doesn't mean tha= t in Loglan but the grouping is intelligible -- why can't a certain degree = of smallness be beautiful? Why, for that matter, can't a school be beautif= ul (many are, after all, and in many ways). On Thursday, September 4, 2014 3:03 PM, TR NS wrote: =20 On Thursday, September 4, 2014 2:26:15 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > >Did you see the phrase {lo melbi cmalu nixli ckule}? >It means in a "pretty way small girls' school". This is a clear case of st= ring modifiers one after another. > > Yes, but I must be missing your point. If it were right grouped by default = it would mean: (pretty (small (girls' school))). Which make sense, though i= t's unlikely the speaker meant the school was pretty --but that's the meani= ng. On the other hand left grouping means: (((pretty small) girls') school)= . Which is almost nonsensical --what's a pretty type-of small? =20 In right grouping it'd be the same. Lojban uses {co} to change the directio= n: > > >{lo ckule co nixli co cmalu co melbi} > > How does this get grouped? =20 For previous examples: > > >{lo karce co barda je xunre}. > > > > >As you can see you still cannot delete {je}. >One might imagine a language where {je} would be omitted, however, I wonde= r why {je}, not {jo'u} or {joi} would be chosen for that. Hmm.. maybe the confusion is that I don't mean putting the "adjective" afte= r the word it modifies. I just mean applying the tenru to the right first. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---482694697-2086562942-1409863477=:95822 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"pretty small" =3D "smaller than average but not y= et extreme".  JCB was making a joke, though with a point.  Of cou= rse, 'bilti cmalu' doesn't mean that in Loglan but the grouping is intellig= ible -- why can't a certain degree of smallness be beautiful?  Why, fo= r that matter, can't a school be beautiful (many are, after all, and in man= y ways).


On Thursday, September 4, 2= 014 3:03 PM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:


=

On Thursday, September 4, 2014 2:26:1= 5 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
Did you see the phrase {lo melbi cmalu nixli ck= ule}?
It means in a "pretty way small girls' school". This is a c= lear case of string modifiers one after another.


Yes, but I must be missing your point. If it were righ= t grouped by default it would mean: (pretty (small (girls' school))). Which= make sense, though it's unlikely the speaker meant the school was pretty -= -but that's the meaning. On the other hand left grouping means: (((pretty s= mall) girls') school). Which is almost nonsensical --what's a pretty type-o= f small?
 
In right grouping it'd be the same. Lojban uses {co} to change= the direction:

{lo ckule co nixli = co cmalu co melbi}


How does this get grouped?
 
For previous examples:

{lo karce co barda je xunre}.


As you can see you s= till cannot delete {je}.
One might imagine a language where {je} = would be omitted, however, I wonder why {je}, not {jo'u} or {joi} would be = chosen for that.

Hmm.. maybe the confusion is that I don't mean putting the "ad= jective" after the word it modifies. I just mean applying the tenru to the = right first.

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