Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <54083D4C.5000809@gmx.de>
References: <20140904043953.GA29601@gonzales>
	<54083D4C.5000809@gmx.de>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 19:12:40 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2cORAOEtx88qyWMK4tbZTpt-z=ht39a5QVna8Lz_0P1sA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] unquantified sumti with restrictive relative clauses in xorlo
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134b78a9f8930050244a696
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

--001a1134b78a9f8930050244a696
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 7:22 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> la'o me. Martin Bays .me cusku
>
>  (iii) Have it pick out some referents such that they satisfy the
>> restrictives:
>>      ko'a poi broda -> zo'e noi me ko'a gi'e broda
>>
>
> This is pretty much my take on it.


Me too. Others have argued though that the poi-clause is (at least
sometimes) not a restriction on the pre-established referents of ko'a, but
rather a way to identify what the referents of ko'a are:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/UUzglNqQg70

<<
(1) {ti poi toldi}: At least in the way my mind works, when I point at
something, I point at a specific thing; I just need to give a clue to the
listener about what I am exactly pointing at. It is not like I am pointing
at a bunch of things and selecting a butterfly out of them.
>>

To me "ti poi toldi" for "this butterfly/these butterflies" always sounded
off, because it starts with these things and then restricts them to those
that are butterflies, instead of starting with butterflies and then
restricting them to those that are near-by. That's why "lo vi toldi" makes
more sense to me.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--001a1134b78a9f8930050244a696
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 7:22 AM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-sty=
le:solid;padding-left:1ex">
la&#39;o me. Martin Bays .me cusku<div class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
(iii) Have it pick out some referents such that they satisfy the restrictiv=
es:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ko&#39;a poi broda -&gt; zo&#39;e noi me ko&#39;a gi=
9;e broda<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
This is pretty much my take on it. </blockquote><div><br></div><div>Me too.=
 Others have argued though that the poi-clause is (at least sometimes) not =
a restriction on the pre-established referents of ko&#39;a, but rather a wa=
y to identify what the referents of ko&#39;a are: =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://=
groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/UUzglNqQg70">https://groups.google.c=
om/forum/#!topic/lojban/UUzglNqQg70</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>&lt;&lt;</div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px">(1) {ti poi toldi}: At least in the way m=
y mind works, when I point at something, I point at a specific thing; I jus=
t need to give a clue to the listener about what I am exactly pointing at. =
It is not like I am pointing at a bunch of things and selecting a butterfly=
 out of them.</span><br>
</div><div>&gt;&gt;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>To me &quot;ti poi toldi&quo=
t; for &quot;this butterfly/these butterflies&quot; always sounded off, bec=
ause it starts with these things and then restricts them to those that are =
butterflies, instead of starting with butterflies and then restricting them=
 to those that are near-by. That&#39;s why &quot;lo vi toldi&quot; makes mo=
re sense to me.</div>
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--001a1134b78a9f8930050244a696--