Received: from mail-la0-f60.google.com ([209.85.215.60]:39751) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XPoOV-00050y-SI for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:21 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f60.google.com with SMTP id pn19sf1110692lab.25 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Hj/vqHhtE+0BfJdZ7xieH/1ptJQ11SP6ahtZOo36WwE=; b=ybx1Zyai9fFFqqtdL05juns69BGRYOE8zls5HdQEwyoC08rcfo1xp5zTFh62nmSJmS Ste7BEisw3wKwBT5agR+4LkAw58OE4t84+Zi/eeq1/mb/kB2G6S8HgIGhlpCGAbUHlZ6 65KvwSORiQul2V28yqv8zBrPgSdpbXZgwddWvV6ItHOhDxF0Pv5pcrYAfAM8jz+/rH29 H1GQQVCAbVuMXZHo96ozpfR9oWHbuWZhC0NhxJirDOjWc5sA/kNZudQjO066xwANXsdk eYnPD2oaBsJeiZDPC5arrilA9+J6lgTTnE+yrdkYsRVy5+B6/4sgypK7FSUjVUTYqHM+ YpHQ== X-Received: by 10.152.243.11 with SMTP id wu11mr303lac.27.1409903832002; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.19.137 with SMTP id f9ls168503lae.24.gmail; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.9.133 with SMTP id z5mr127011laa.5.1409903830939; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p7si64311wiz.1.2014.09.05.00.57.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b; Received: by mail-wg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id a1so11302156wgh.14 for ; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.200.137 with SMTP id js9mr12403085wjc.90.1409903830850; Fri, 05 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Sep 2014 00:57:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2739f31b-5a6f-42ad-bcf4-036b42bcf64a@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 11:57:10 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Why left-grouping of tanru? From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb70c740161a705024cd167 X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed --047d7bb70c740161a705024cd167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-05 0:03 GMT+04:00 TR NS : > > > On Thursday, September 4, 2014 2:26:15 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >> >> >> Did you see the phrase {lo melbi cmalu nixli ckule}? >> It means in a "pretty way small girls' school". This is a clear case of >> string modifiers one after another. >> >> > Yes, but I must be missing your point. If it were right grouped by default > it would mean: (pretty (small (girls' school))). Which make sense, though > it's unlikely the speaker meant the school was pretty --but that's the > meaning. On the other hand left grouping means: (((pretty small) girls') > school). Which is almost nonsensical --what's a pretty type-of small? > "In a pretty way small". This makes sense. May be so "cute" but only because it's small. E.g. a puppet might be cute but a giant toy puppet might not lead to similar emotions. > >> In right grouping it'd be the same. Lojban uses {co} to change the >> direction: >> >> {lo ckule co nixli co cmalu co melbi} >> >> > How does this get grouped? > ckule co nixli co cmalu school of-type (girl of-type small) which is the same as ( (small) girl ) school See https://lojban.github.io/cll/5/8/ BTW, "little" would be a more correct term here. > > >> For previous examples: >> >> {lo karce co barda je xunre}. >> >> >> As you can see you still cannot delete {je}. >> One might imagine a language where {je} would be omitted, however, I >> wonder why {je}, not {jo'u} or {joi} would be chosen for that. >> > > Hmm.. maybe the confusion is that I don't mean putting the "adjective" > after the word it modifies. I just mean applying the tenru to the right > first. > {karce co barda je xunre} is a tanru. What do you mean of applying tanru? May be applying seltau? In {barda karce} barda is a seltau and karce is a tertau. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bb70c740161a705024cd167 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-09-05 0:03 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:


On Thurs= day, September 4, 2014 2:26:15 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
=

Did yo= u see the phrase {lo melbi cmalu nixli ckule}?
It means in a &quo= t;pretty way small girls' school". This is a clear case of string = modifiers one after another.


Ye= s, but I must be missing your point. If it were right grouped by default it= would mean: (pretty (small (girls' school))). Which make sense, though= it's unlikely the speaker meant the school was pretty --but that's= the meaning. On the other hand left grouping means: (((pretty small) girls= ') school). Which is almost nonsensical --what's a pretty type-of s= mall?

"In a pretty way sma= ll". This makes sense. May be so "cute" but only because it&= #39;s small.
E.g. a puppet might be cute but a giant toy puppet m= ight not lead to similar emotions.

=C2=A0
In right grouping = it'd be the same. Lojban uses {co} to change the direction:
<= br>
{lo ckule co nixli co cmalu co melbi}


How does this get gr= ouped?

ckule co nixli co cmalu<= br>
school of-type (girl of-type small)

which is the same as <= br>
( (small) girl ) school

See=C2=A0https://lojban.github.io/cll/5/8/

BTW, "little" would be a more correct term here.


=C2=A0
=C2=A0
For previous examples:

{lo karce co barda je xunre}.


<= /div>
As you can see you still cannot delete {je}.
One might = imagine a language where {je} would be omitted, however, I wonder why {je},= not {jo'u} or {joi} would be chosen for that.
<= /blockquote>

Hmm.. maybe the confusion is that I = don't mean putting the "adjective" after the word it modifies= . I just mean applying the tenru to the right first.
=C2=A0
{karce co barda je xunre} is a tanru. What do you m= ean of applying tanru? May be applying seltau?
In {barda karc= e} barda is a seltau and karce is a tertau.


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