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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 09:25:33 -0400
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Subject: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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    A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY
prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now, according
to CLL 7.5.8:

>          The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series
> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are
> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with
> the same letter


   And similarly in 17.9.2:

>   If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single
> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name
> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu

    That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time
about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti.  Some suggest counting
the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the
first letter of the internal bridi.  This poses two problems.  First,
consider the following:

 la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny

  Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which
one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has
the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for
events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain
vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)

  The second problem is what do you do with an example like this:

   la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna        ?

  The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumti
with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what would the second
camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to them.  They can't use
"ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe, but it seems a stretch.  They
would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se
go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/


  Proposed solution:

  New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and
can refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/symbol, what
do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban.  It doesn't
matter,  Because we are talking here only about using them as evaluatable
symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.

  This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would
make discourse clearer and cleaner.

     What do people think?

                   --gejyspa

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject that comes=
 up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially wh=
en they interact with abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The main difference=
 between letter pro-sumti and ko&#39;a-series pro-sumti is that, in the abs=
ence of an explicit assignment, letters are taken to refer to the most rece=
nt name or description sumti beginning with the same letter</blockquote><di=
v>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.9.2:</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex">=C2=A0 If no assignment    can be found for a lerfu string (espec=
ially a single lerfu    word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recen=
t sumti    whose name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu</bloc=
kquote><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That&#39;s all very well and good, but questions =
come up from time to time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti=
. =C2=A0Some suggest counting the NU that marks the start of the structure,=
 others suggest using the first letter of the internal bridi. =C2=A0This po=
ses two problems. =C2=A0First, consider the following:</div><div><br></div>=
<div>=C2=A0la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny</div><div><br></=
div><div>=C2=A0 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? =C2=A0It=
 depends on which one of the above approaches the author uses (the first ap=
proach also has the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of &quot;ny=
&quot; and &quot;ky&quot; used for events and properties, and their concomi=
tant unavailability for plain vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignme=
nt).)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The second problem is what do you do =
with an example like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0la normyn =
nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem talking about=
 the abstraction sumti with an implicit BY &quot;It&#39;s ny,&quot; they de=
clare. =C2=A0But what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They can&#39;t u=
se ny, that&#39;s Norman to them. =C2=A0They can&#39;t use &quot;ry&quot;, =
that&#39;s Rover himself. =C2=A0&quot;ly&quot;? =C2=A0Maybe, but it seems a=
 stretch. =C2=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assign=
ment, ri/ra/ru, se go&#39;i/go&#39;e/go&#39;a, or the like/</div><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 Proposed solution:</div><div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0 New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refe=
r, and can refer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0&quot;But if they are=
 a letter/symbol, what do they look like?&quot; you ask. =C2=A0 That&#39;s =
the beauty of lojban. =C2=A0It doesn&#39;t matter, =C2=A0Because we are tal=
king here only about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, =
which any lerfu can do.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 This breaks absolut=
ely none of the current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer a=
nd cleaner. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do peo=
ple think?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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