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Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 17:37:44 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] a modest suggestion -- nubu/kabu
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:

>
>
>     A subject that comes up from time to time is ambiguity with implicit
> BY prosumti, especially when they interact with abstractors.  Now,
> according to CLL 7.5.8:
>
>>          The main difference between letter pro-sumti and ko'a-series
>> pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explicit assignment, letters are
>> taken to refer to the most recent name or description sumti beginning with
>> the same letter
>
>
>    And similarly in 17.9.2:
>
>>   If no assignment can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single
>> lerfu word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti whose name
>> or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu
>
>     That's all very well and good, but questions come up from time to time
> about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti.  Some suggest counting
> the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest using the
> first letter of the internal bridi.  This poses two problems.  First,
> consider the following:
>
>  la normyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny
>
>   Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming?  It depends on which
> one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has
> the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of "ny" and "ky" used for
> events and properties, and their concomitant unavailability for plain
> vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)
>
>   The second problem is what do you do with an example like this:
>
>    la normyn nelci lo nu la rovr noi gerku cu limna        ?
>
>   The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstraction sumti
> with an implicit BY "It's ny," they declare.  But what would the second
> camp call it?  They can't use ny, that's Norman to them.  They can't use
> "ry", that's Rover himself.  "ly"?  Maybe, but it seems a stretch.  They
> would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/ru, se
> go'i/go'e/go'a, or the like/
>
>
>   Proposed solution:
>
>   New symbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer,
> and can refer ONLY  to the abstraction.  "But if they are a letter/symbol,
> what do they look like?" you ask.   That's the beauty of lojban.  It
> doesn't matter,  Because we are talking here only about using them as
> evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any lerfu can do.
>
>   This breaks absolutely none of the current grammar, but I think would
> make discourse clearer and cleaner.
>
>      What do people think?
>

Never even thought of using {ny.} to refer to {lo nu broda}. For me {ny.}
could only refer to cmevla or brivla in the narrow sense:
gismu/lujvo/fu'ivla excluding cmavo like GOhA.

For me the problem with {SOMETHINGbu} is that it has unpredictable meaning.
luckily not in your suggestion.


>                    --gejyspa
>
>  --
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">2014-09-05 17:25 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subject that comes up from time to t=
ime is ambiguity with implicit BY prosumti, especially when they interact w=
ith abstractors. =C2=A0Now, according to CLL 7.5.8:</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0The main difference between letter p=
ro-sumti and ko&#39;a-series pro-sumti is that, in the absence of an explic=
it assignment, letters are taken to refer to the most recent name or descri=
ption sumti beginning with the same letter</blockquote><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0And similarly in 17.9.2:</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-le=
ft-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 =
If no assignment    can be found for a lerfu string (especially a single le=
rfu    word), it can be assumed to refer to the most recent sumti    whose =
name or description begins in Lojban with that lerfu</blockquote><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 That&#39;s all very well and good, but questions come up from ti=
me to time about what letter to use for an abstraction sumti. =C2=A0Some su=
ggest counting the NU that marks the start of the structure, others suggest=
 using the first letter of the internal bridi. =C2=A0This poses two problem=
s. =C2=A0First, consider the following:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0la n=
ormyn prami lo nu limna i la dorys nelci ny</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
 Does Doris like Norman, or does she like swimming? =C2=A0It depends on whi=
ch one of the above approaches the author uses (the first approach also has=
 the unenviable problem of having a multiplicity of &quot;ny&quot; and &quo=
t;ky&quot; used for events and properties, and their concomitant unavailabi=
lity for plain vanilla sumti (at least for implicit assignment).)</div><div=
><br></div><div>=C2=A0 The second problem is what do you do with an example=
 like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0la normyn nelci lo nu la =
rovr noi gerku cu limna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 The first camp would have no problem talking about the abstractio=
n sumti with an implicit BY &quot;It&#39;s ny,&quot; they declare. =C2=A0Bu=
t what would the second camp call it? =C2=A0They can&#39;t use ny, that&#39=
;s Norman to them. =C2=A0They can&#39;t use &quot;ry&quot;, that&#39;s Rove=
r himself. =C2=A0&quot;ly&quot;? =C2=A0Maybe, but it seems a stretch. =C2=
=A0They would pretty much be forced to use explicit goi assignment, ri/ra/r=
u, se go&#39;i/go&#39;e/go&#39;a, or the like/</div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>=C2=A0 Proposed solution:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 New s=
ymbols, nubu, kabu (and the rest of the NUbu family) that refer, and can re=
fer ONLY =C2=A0to the abstraction. =C2=A0&quot;But if they are a letter/sym=
bol, what do they look like?&quot; you ask. =C2=A0 That&#39;s the beauty of=
 lojban. =C2=A0It doesn&#39;t matter, =C2=A0Because we are talking here onl=
y about using them as evaluatable symbols, to refer to sumti, which any ler=
fu can do.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 This breaks absolutely none of t=
he current grammar, but I think would make discourse clearer and cleaner. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What do people think?</=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Never even thought of using {ny.=
} to refer to {lo nu broda}. For me {ny.} could only refer to cmevla or bri=
vla in the narrow sense: gismu/lujvo/fu&#39;ivla excluding cmavo like GOhA.=
</div><div><br></div><div>For me the problem with {SOMETHINGbu} is that it =
has unpredictable meaning. luckily not in your suggestion.</div><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa=
</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font>=
</span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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